Going through hell

deleted_user 02/27/2011
It sure sounds like it. Wasn\'t your exhusband a police officer? Police and Military are 2 of the highest occupations for this type of personality.

It sounds like you are back in the loop of idolization then the devalue.

I am sorry you have to go through this AGAIN. It sounds like you have some work left to do, because as well all know, the pain continues until the lesson has been learned.

The less validating you are, the less worth you have for the narcissist.
The less exploitable you are, the less worth you have for the sociopath.
Ns count on us seeing the good in people, in believing people are basically good. We believe it because that is how WE are.

One point made in the book Primer on Evil by T., is that good people and evil people are equally convinced the other does not exist. Black and white characterizations are rarely useful, but for the sake of argument, good people see the good in others.

Evil people think good people do good to get something, which is how they operate. Evil people think good people are fools and that they deserve to be exploited because of their naivet.

deleted_user 02/27/2011
I just wrote this to someone else but perhaps it can apply to you:

RE: I cannot love myself when no-one else does,

You have this so backwards!!! No one CAN love you until you love yourself. That is the key here. Self love above all other love.

If you do not value yourself, how can anyone else value you?

You have mentioned that you were in several horrible relationships prior to this one, so let me ask you, what did you do to heal and recovery from those relationships?

We MUST make conscious and deliberate choices to change or we will continue to hurt oursleves by making horrible choices.

People who cannot trust themselves punish themselves indirectly by putting their trust in those less likely to return it.\' Harry Palmer

I have said this many times. Pain is the most important catalyst for change that we have. I understand how you feel. Completely. I have NEVER been in the amount of pain I was in until the discard. Never. That is what led me straight to therapy. I had to understand why I was in so much pain. And my therapist explained to me that this was OLD pain. It was not new pain. We attach the pain to them being gone but I promise you this:; THIS PAIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. It is simply a lifetime of pain coming to the surface. Their abaonding us is the TRIGGER for the pain that was already there.

I remember reading this quote about 8,000 times when I was in the middle of the pain:

Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self, so therefore, trust the physician and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility. Khailil Gibran

I knew I could never tolerate this amount of pain again so I had to go deep way deep and making lasting change. I have been in therapy for almost 2 years now. I can clearly see my part in all of this. The lack of boundaries. The complete and total wish for this man\'s validation.

I never once blamed God for pain nor asked him: why why why because my therapist told me: it took someone this destrutive to wake you up to force you to face your issues.

\'The pain doesn\'t go away until the lesson is learned\'. Pema Chodron

I do not know if your sons were raised in chaos or not but however they were raised that in the past and there is nothing that you can do about it. They are grown now. You can however show them how strong you are RIGHT NOW. You can give them an example of a strong mother who is willing to face her fears.

A rule of thumb is: The more difficult it is to end a relationship that is bad for you, the more elements of your personal childhood struggle it contains.

When you are loving too much, very likely you are trying to overcome the old fears, anger, frustration, and pain from childhood-and to stop doing so seems tantamount to surrendering a precious opportunity for both obtaining what was always missing in your life and rectifying the many ways you have been wronged.

However, unless you change your patterns of relating, you\'re insuring that your adult years will be as full of pain as your childhood was-and adulthood lasts a lot longer....\" Robin Norwood, Women Who Love Too Much

I wonder why love is so often equated with joy when it is everything else as well: devastation, balm, obsession, granting and receiving excessive value, and losing it again.
--Florida Scott Maxwell

deleted_user 02/27/2011
RE: I\'m so confused all the time, he tells me that he knows he shouldn\'t get angry but I could do some things to prevent him from losing his temper. To me this feels like a cop out, that he doesn\'t want to take full responsibility for his actions

My therapist told me that she always knows when he is dealing with a patholoigcal because they refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.

deleted_user 02/27/2011
http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/

Personality Disorders: The Controllers, Abusers, Manipulators, and Users in Relationships

Chances are, you are dealing with an individual with a personality disorder somewhere in your life whether its your spouse, your parent, your co-worker even your child. Dr Carvers introduction to personality disorders in relationships puts the reality in plain English; more than just a list of diagnostic criteria, this explanation describes what its really like to be dealing with a personality disorder and offers tips for victims.

Who are these people? In romantic relationships, they are controlling, abusive, manipulative partners who can ruin not only the relationship, but our self-esteem, finances, and reputation. As a parent, they can put the D in Dysfunctional Family and be the parent that abuses, neglects, ignores, or psychologically damages their children.

As a friend they may be irresponsible, selfish, unreliable, dishonest, and often create significant problems in our life. As a neighbor, they spread rumors, create disharmony in the neighborhood, and steal our lawnmower. As a family member, they maintain themselves as the center of attention and keep the family in an uproar, or they may be the 45 year old brother who has never worked and remains dependent on the family for his support.

They may be the brother or sister who verbally bullies and intimidates others with their temper tantrums. As a coworker they are manipulative, unethical, dishonest, and willing to damage co-workers to achieve their employment goals. On the street they are the criminals, con artists, and people-users who purposefully damage others, then quickly move on to avoid detection.

In over three decades of experience of dealing with victims, its clear that the majority of emotional victims I see in clinical practice are actually victims of an individual with a Personality Disorder. The Personality Disorder has been around for many years. For several centuries, professionals working with all types of people recognized that some individuals clearly thought and acted differently without normal feelings, attitudes, behaviors, and interactions.
In 1835, Dr. Pritchard suggested the term moral insanity to reflect the fact that these individuals were not insane by the standards of the day, yet had significant differences in their behavior, attitudes, ethics, morality, emotional expressions, and reactions to situations. Despite their significant differences when compared to others in their culture, the individuals exhibited little emotional or social distress.


Personality Disorders are individuals who have a long history of personality, behavior, emotional, and relationship difficulties. This group is said to have a personality disorder an enduring pattern of inner experience (mood, attitude, beliefs, values, etc.) and behavior (aggressiveness, instability, etc.) that is significantly different than those in their family or culture. These dysfunctional patterns are inflexible and intrusive into almost every aspect of the individuals life. These patterns create significant problems in personal and emotional functioning and are often so severe that they lead to distress or impairment in all areas of their life. (Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition)

Personality Disorders are divided into three groups, or clusters.

Cluster A personality disorders are individuals who have odd, eccentric behaviors. Paranoid, Schizoid, and Schizotypal Personalities fall into this cluster.

Cluster B are personalities that are highly dramatic, both emotionally and behaviorally. Antisocial, Borderline, Narcissistic, and Histrionic Personality are in this group.

Cluster C are personalities characterized by being anxious and fearful. Avoidant, Dependent, and Obsessive-Compulsive Personality fall into this cluster.

The Relationship Destroyers: Cluster B

In considering individuals who create the most damage to social and personal relationships, the abusers, manipulators, players, controllers, and losers are found in Cluster B. For this reason, this article will focus on the behaviors associated with Cluster B personality disorders.

In the general population, the largest number of personality disorders fall in the Cluster B group. The four personality disorders in Cluster B are:

Antisocial Personality
A pervasive pattern of disregard for the rights of others and rules of society. The Antisocial Personality ranges from individuals who are chronically irresponsible, unsupportive, con artists to those who have total disregard for the rights of others and commit criminal acts with no remorse, including those involving the death of victims. In clinical practice, the Antisocial Personality has near-total selfishness and typically has a pattern of legal problems, lying and deception, physical assault and intimidation, no regard for the safety of others, unwillingness to meet normal standards for work/support/parenting, and no remorse.

Borderline Personality

A pervasive pattern of intense yet unstable relationships, mood, and self-perception. Impulse control is severely impaired. Common characteristics include panic fears of abandonment, unstable social relationships, unstable self-image, impulsive/self-damaging acts such as promiscuity/substance abuse/alcohol use, recurrent suicide thoughts/attempts, self-injury and self-mutilation, chronic feelings of emptiness, inappropriate yet intense anger, and fleeting paranoia.

Histrionic Personality

A pervasive pattern of excessive emotional display and attention-seeking. Individuals with this personality are excessively dramatic and are often viewed by the public as the Queen of drama type of individual. They are often sexually seductive and highly manipulative in relationships.

Narcissistic Personality

A pervasive preoccupation with admiration, entitlement, and egotism. Individuals with this personality exaggerate their accomplishments/talents, have a sense of entitlement, lack empathy or concern for others, are preoccupied with envy and jealousy, and have an arrogant attitude. Their sense of entitlement and inflated self-esteem are unrelated to real talent or accomplishments. They feel entitled to special attention, privileges, and consideration in social settings. This sense of entitlement also produces a feeling that they are entitled to punish those who do not provide their required respect, admiration, or attention.

The majority of clients with difficulties related to their childhood find a Personality Disorder as a parent. For many, they have found themselves in a romantic relationship or marriage with a Personality Disorder. Others discover they are working with a Personality Disorder as a co-worker, supervisor, or supervisee. A smaller group finds they are victims of the severe behavior of a Personality Disorder and have been assaulted, robbed, traumatized, or manipulated.

Personality Disorders are present in 10 to 15 percent of the adult population, with Cluster B accounting for approximately 9 percent based on research. At such a high percentage, its important that we learn to identify these individuals in our lives. A failure to identify them may create significant risk. While most of our contact with a Personality Disorder may be brief, the more involved they are in our lives, the higher the risk of emotional, social, and other damage. For this reason, its helpful to identify some of the characteristics of a personality disorder.

Core Features of Personality Disorders
Mental health professionals have identified ten personality disorders, each with their own pattern of behaviors, emotionality, and symptoms. However, in my observation, all Cluster B Personality Disorders have core personality features that serve as the foundation for their specific personality disorder. Some of those core personality features are:

Self-Centered
We often hear the phrase Its All About Me. When making decisions, a healthy person weighs the needs and concerns of others as well as their own. A Personality Disorder weighs only their needs and concerns. A Personality Disorder may use money to feed their family for their own purpose. A brother with a Personality Disorder may intimidate an elderly parent for money or manipulate a legal situation to eliminate siblings from an inheritance. In most situations, if we are contacted by a Personality Disorder, the contact is for their purpose, not ours.

Refusal to Accept Personal Responsibility for Their Behavior

Individuals with a Personality Disorder almost never accept personal responsibility for their behavior. They blame others, use excuses, claim misunderstandings, and then depict themselves as the victim in the situation. Those that are physically abusive actually blame the victims of their abuse for the assault. Victims often hear This is your fault! Why did you make me angry?

This aspect of a Personality Disorder is very damaging when the Personality Disorder is a parent. They blame the children for their abusive, neglectful, or dysfunctional behavior. Children are told they are responsible for the temper tantrums, alcohol/substance abuse, unemployment, poverty, unhappiness, etc. of their parent. During a divorce, a Personality Disorder parent often blames the children.

Self-Justification

Individuals with a Personality Disorder dont think, reason, feel, and behave normally. However, they typically justify all of their behaviors. Their justification often comes from their view that they have been victims of society or others and are therefore justified in their manipulative, controlling, criminal or abusive behaviors. A common justification in criminals is to blame the victim for the crime as when hearing Its his fault (the victim) that he got shot. He should have given me the money faster. Healthy adults find it impossible to reason with a Personality Disorder, finding their justifications impossible to understand.

Entitlement

Individuals with a Personality Disorder have a tremendous sense of entitlement, a sense that they deserve respect, money, fame, power, authority, attention, etc. Some feel they are entitled to be the center of attention and when that doesnt happen, they are entitled to create a scene or uproar to gain that attention. Entitlement also creates a justification to punish others in the Personality Disorder. If you violate one of their rules or demands, they feel entitled to punish you in some way.

Shallow Emotions

Healthy people are always amazed and astonished that a person with a Personality Disorder can quickly detach from a partner, move on, and exhibit very little in the way of remorse or distress. A Personality Disorder can find another partner following a breakup, often within days. These same individuals can also quickly detach from their family and children. They can become angry with their parents and not contact them for years. A Personality Disorder can abandon their children while blaming the spouse/partner for their lack of support and interest. Their ability to behave in this manner is related to their Shallow Emotions. The best way to think of Shallow Emotions is to have a great $300.00 automobile (192 euros). You have a limited investment in the automobile, and when its running great you have no complaints. You take the effort to maintain the vehicle as long as the costs are low. If it develops costly mechanical difficulties, its cheaper to dispose of it and get another $300.00 automobile that will run well. Also, if you move a large distance, you leave it behind because its more costly to transport it. A Personality Disorder has shallow emotions and often views those around them as $300.00 autos. Their emotional investment in others is minimal. If their partner is too troublesome, they quickly move on. If parents criticize their behavior, they end their relationship with them until they need something.

Situational Morality

A Personality Disorder takes pride in being able to do what I gotta do to have their demands/needs met. They have few personal or social boundaries and in the severe cases, do not feel bound by laws of the land and quickly engage in criminal activity if needed. The motto of a Personality Disorder is the end justifies the means. Situational morality creates rather extreme behaviors and many Personality Disorders have no hesitation to harm themselves or others to meet their needs. Activities often seen as manipulative are tools of the trade for a Personality Disorder and include lying, dishonesty, conning behavior, intimidation, scheming, and acting. Many Personality Disorders are social chameleons and after evaluating a potential victim/partner, alter their presentation to be the most effective. Severe Personality Disorders have no hesitation about self-injury and will cut themselves, overdose, threaten suicide, or otherwise injure themselves with the goal of retaining their partner using guilt and obligation.

Narcissism and Ineffective Lives

A Personality Disorder has a strong influence on the life and lifestyle of the individual. Cluster B personality disorders often have two lives their real life and the imaginary life they present to others that is full of excuses, half-truths, deceptions, cons, lies, fantasies, and stories prepared for a specific purpose. Physical abusers who were forcibly and legally removed from their children and spouse develop a story that the in-laws conspired with the police to separate them from the children they love so deeply.

Jail time is often reinterpreted as I took the blame for my friend so he could continue to work and support his family. A major finding in a Personality Disorder is an ineffective life reports of tremendous talent and potential but very little in the way of social or occupational success. Its a life of excuses and deceptions. Narcissistic and Antisocial losers often promise romantic cruises that never take place or have a reason that their partner needs to place an automobile in his/her name. Their lives are often accompanied by financial irresponsibility, chronic unemployment, legal difficulties, and unstable living situations in the community. Their behavior often emotionally exhausts those around them something the Personality Disorder explains with My family and I have had a falling out. We can be assured that no matter what real life situation is present in the life of the Personality Disorder, there will be a justification and excuse for it.

Social Disruption

There is never a calm, peaceful, and stable relationship with a Cluster B Personality Disorder! Their need to be the center of attention and control those around them ensures a near constant state of drama, turmoil, discord, and distress. An individual with a Personality Disorder creates drama and turmoil in almost every social situation. Holidays, family reunions, outings in the community, travel, and even grocery shopping are often turned into a social nightmare.

The Personality Disorder also creates disruption in their family system. They are the focus of feuds, grudges, bad feelings, jealousy, and turmoil. If you have a member of your family that you hate to see arrive at a family reunion or holiday dinner he or she probably has a Personality Disorder.

Manipulation As A Way of Life

To obtain our daily personal, social, and emotional needs, a healthy individual has a variety of strategies to use including taking personal action, politely asking someone, making deals, being honest, etc. Healthy individuals also use manipulation as one of many social skills buying someone a gift to cheer them up, making comments and giving hints that something is desired, etc.

For the Personality Disorder, despite the many social strategies available, manipulation is their preferred method of obtaining their wants and needs. The manipulations of a Personality Disorder when combined with shallow emotions, entitlement, and being self-centered can be extreme.

To obtain their goals, an Antisocial Personality may physically threaten, harass, intimidate, and assault those around them. Histrionic Personalities may create dramatic situations, threaten self-harm, or create social embarrassment. Narcissistic Personalities may send police and an ambulance to your home if you dont answer their phone calls, using the excuse that they were concerned about you. Their real goal is to ensure you that their phone calls must be answered or you will pay the consequences. Borderline Personalities may self-injure in your physical presence. In a relationship with a Personality Disorder, we are constantly faced with a collection of schemes, situations, manipulations, and interactions that have a hidden agenda, their agenda.

The Talk and Behavior Gap

We know how people are by two samples of their personality their talk and their behavior. A person who is honest has talk/conversation/promises that match their behavior almost 100%. If he/she borrows money and tells you they will repay you Friday, and then pays you Friday, you have an honest person.

When we observe these matches frequently, then we can give more trust to that individual in the future. The wider the gap between what a person says/promises and what they do the more they are considered dishonest, unreliable, irresponsible, etc.

Due to the shallow emotions and situational morality often found in a Personality Disorder, the gap between talk and behavior can be very wide. A Personality Disorder can often assure their spouse that they love them while having an extramarital affair, borrow money with no intention of paying it back, promise anything with no intention of fulfilling that promise, and assure you of their friendship while spreading nasty rumors about you. A rule: Judge a person by their behavior more than their talk or promises.

Dysfunctional Parents

Individuals with a Personality Disorder are frequently parents. However, they are frequently dysfunctional parents. Personality Disorder parents often see their children as a burden to their personal goals, are often jealous of the attention their children receive, often feel competitive with their older children, and often attempt to obtain their personal goals through their children. Personality Disorder parents control their children through manipulation, with little concern for how their parenting behavior will later influence the lives or the personality of the child. Personality Disorder parents are often hypercritical, leaving the child with the feeling that they are incompetent or unworthy.

In extreme cases, Antisocial parents criminally neglect, abuse, or exploit their children often teaching them to become criminals. Criminal parents often use their children to steal or carry drugs to avoid criminal charges as an adult, allowing the children to face the legal charges. Spouses with a Personality Disorder are often jealous of the attention their partner provides to children in the home, frequently targeting the child for verbal abuse in their jealousy. The narcissism and shallow emotions in a Personality Disorder parent leave the children feeling unloved, unwanted, unworthy, and unappreciated

Amazon07 02/27/2011
Thank you for all this Suzy! I read it and The Entitlement is slightly true for him; because he says he fights for people to have freedom and the ability to live a good life, so they should make the most of it (a bit like \'Saving Private Ryan\'). He is not manipulative, he doesn\'t blame me for being angry or shouting, he says I could do a couple of things to help him not to do it nut he says that he\'s responsible for his yelling. He promises to change and he reads books on it that he discusses with me, went to see a counsellor and comes to relationship counselling too. He is nothing at all like my ex. Completely different. He doesn\'t lie, cheat, manipulate. He always says that I\'m too negative and I always assume bad stuff, and react to it, even if he doesn\'t do it. This is true. He says he understands because he knows my past. Unlike my ex, who was only interested in himself, my current bf is interested in what\'s happening in my life, he listens, asks questions, lets me vent and offers advise if I ask for it. He had some severely traumatic things in his life and I think he has an anger issue, which he agrees with. I don\'t think he is pathological; he says all the stuff to me that you have written above about looking after myself and that I need to love and forgive myself, and not blame myself because my Dad was violent or because I was abused by pedofiles when I was 13, or because I have eating disorders. He always says that the most wonderful thing for him is to see me smile. He sat with me whole day today as well to help me write a list about who am I, what makes me happy, my achievements and my positive memories. Nobody ever did that for me and it was his idea to help me see how great I am, so I can appreciate myself. I don\'t think a sociopath would do that and a narc?? No way! I know, I was with one for 6 years. The only similarity between my bf and xn is that they both have a job with authority. But whereas I got my ex into the police 6 months before he left me ( he was a roofer\'s labourer before!!) my bf is a high ranking army officer and he is still able to look at his beliefs and change them, something my ex was NEVER willing or able to do! My bf is really sweet and kind to my pets, and tells me all the time what a great Mum I am (to my pets) :-) and how much they love me. My ex used to tell me that my pets loved him more than me, and used to talk all the time about what I\'ll do if I come downstairs one morning and see my dog dead! I challenged my bf yesterday about his dislike fir people, and he said he realised he didn\'t dislike people; he does get frustrated with them but he wouldn\'t be able to love his job so much if he disliked people, as he does everything for the welfare of the population.
I am so neurotic and anxious about past bad events in my life, and I think the issue is that I am bringing all that into my current relationship. He has a baggage too and some anger issues, and his and my issues feed off each other. Add in the cultural differences, and that we are both in our 30\'s and problems will occur.
My bf says I need to relax and find myself again, so I can be happy and we can be happy. He gave me $350 to treat myself and go away for a few days. We got that money from his parents for Christmas and he said I should have it all because he doesn\'t need anything that would be more important than me feeling good. He said I have been through so much and I need to realise how great I am and know that I will be OK no matter what (I always think about worst case scenarios and play them out to tiny details, all the what if\'s, even if the chance if it happening is tiny... This is very unhealthy and I developed this thinking while I was with my ex, as my then best friend was a guy who always did this. He was my main sounding board as my ex would never have meaningful conversations with me, and when my ex and me split, this friend came on to me... So he had a hidden agenda all those years!. We are no longer friends, but the thinking method is still in my head, so I have to fond the positive me again!

I have so much work to do in me but I think my bf wants the best for me, and just gets frustrated when I hurt myself. He needs to sort his anger out and he us working on that with results. From everything I read above, and from others, I think he is not a pathological, just human with a baggage. I will stay alert though. Thanks Suzy!
Love, Anita.

goingup 03/07/2011
Wow. I read your story and I have to say, your guy sounds so much like my ex with the whole \'hatred for humanity\' thing going on. He absolutely hated people, he referred to them as \'HUMANS\' with this tone of contempt and had zero friends at the time I met him and rarely went out in public (he was unemployed). He thought people were morons and completely stupid and their \'eyes were closed\' to what was happening in society. He thought they were all brainwashed by society. I\'ve always had some social anxiety which has gotten increasingly worse as I age, so it didn\'t bother me he didn\'t have friends. The \'hatred for humanity\' thing was kind of stupid to me, but I brushed it off.

From all the researching I\'ve done, I\'ve come to understand that hating people is actually a huge waving red flag on a hill. Its only a matter of time before we become \'just like other humans\' to them. As soon as we are taken off the pedestal of \'being like him and not them\' its all downhill from there.

I think this quality of hatred for people can be measured on a scale to an intense hatred of people on one end or just a dislike on the other. I\'m not sure where your guy falls. But if he intensely hates other people, be careful. Best of luck to you xxxxx

Amazon07 03/08/2011
I spoke with him about this and it seems like he is more disappointed about people rather than hating them. He does say negative things about random strangers orthe street (she is fat, he is ugly, they are walking too slow) and gets frustrated. He is sociable but lacks the ability to be assertive and gets frustrated and angry instead. He is also unaware of his feelings and has a really negative, self-bashing and judgemental internal dialogue going on, which he didn\'t know he was in control of (I told him the concept last night and he seemed genuinely surprised).
Unlike my exN, who was unable to form meaningful realtionships and he just had a lot of mates, and hated his parents (used to call his Mum a slut, and she was anything but; she is a really nice, friendly and genuine lady), my bf has a good relationship with his parents, they talk and he says nice things about them. If he meets nice people, he says afterwards that they were lovely and that they are good people. His 2 best friends are in the States and he doesn\'t really have friends here (most of his colleagues commute to work so don\'t live nearby, and there isn\'t much community activity in our area) but he gets on well with people in our salsa class and all my friends liked him, but they only met for a few hours. They don\'t like the way he yells at me though and that he gets angry so quickly and treats me bad.

I just wrote a journal entry about my progress, let me know what you think.

I hope you are well and having a good day!

A xx