Are you talking about the WWLTM book by Melody Beatie?!

Hmmm yes loving ourselves, always at the heart of everything isn't it. I can't imagine it either - how do I do that?! Where do I start?!

I think maybe it starts at self-acceptance?!

Great idea.

Self love...that IS a new concept. My local DV support group encourages giving a gift to myself once a week...that was fun and just that act of kindness really brightened my day.

I naturally have much more compassion for others than myself. When I hear another's woman's tale of mistreatment, I feel deeply angry, and deep emotional pain. I'm not as connected to outrage for my own situation.

I was raised to believe I had to be Super Girl. Better than everyone else...with no needs and must do it all - perfectly. It's so laughable because my life is a mess ....so clearly that did not work.

Chapter one...here we go....!

Great idea....so after reading chapter one in the wwltm book (norwood) we just post what we thought or realize bout ourselves. Im on board. im going reread it today.

This is a great idea! I got the book out of the library -- I'll see if I can get it again.

I have the book as well and wanted to reread it. I had a hard time connecting with the beginning of the book the first time I read it because it had a lot to do with women who love men who are alcoholics, and that wasn't my case. But I am going to see if I can read it from a different perspective.

Hi Book Club Ladies (lol):

It took me a while to reread the first chapter. For some reason it struck me hard today maybe it was because I was anticipating writing my comments to you guys.

Also I was overcome with memories of the ex. Thinking about better times, better moments, and a better outcome than what we had. I attempted to suppress it but finally I just gave into and allowed myself to feel that I missed him, missed the me in that moment. I also felt the fear I held then and now.

Well onto the book: Norwood did a great job of painting the scene between her and Jill. I felt like I was witnessing their therapy session. As if I was allowed access into a personal session an observer, silently watching, listening, relating. I said the exact words to my therapist when I was in college. " I want to know what I'm doing wrong, what I have to change about me-because I'll do it. I'll do it whatever it takes."
I also remember telling my therapist that I could never be okay until my parents changed. I was overweight at the time so she took the easiest behavioral right and we began a weight loss program. I lost 80 and met more men and started having way more sex. I wasn't prepared to deal with my new body. We addressed a symptom but didn't touch the source.

But back to the book: There was nothing about Jill's experience that was foreign to me. When the author said Jill's eagerness must have shown; I felt a sting within my heart because I remember how hard I tired not to act eager when meeting new men but how eager I must have appeared. The word desperate is like a knife to my heart. I hate to hear it I hate to think it because it is the thing that I am so ashamed of. The feeling that I am desperate for any love and attention anyone will give me and how eager I am for it. When Jill said she loved looking after a man I cringed. God, I have felt like that was my responsibility to cook, clean, and look after a grown ass man. It was my offering.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that the characteristics for a WWLTM overlap with codependency issues as well. I display all the characteristics for a wwltm not one of them is missing from my experiences. My father was an alcoholic, emotionally unavailable, and angry. My mother was a compulsive eater and addicted to her medication that she took for her mental illness. They were both scared and unconscious of how their behaviors were affecting me. I took the lack of love and support from them to mean that something was wrong with me and I have taken that mine frame into every relationship I had.

The book stated, " We work very, very hard at trying to appear to be good, because we don't believe that we are." I feel this way even with my son. I feel like I am always pretending to be something that I am not. "Trying to be good" has its downfall because eventually you slip and then people are surprised by your behavior. Its exhausting to wear a mask all the time especially with the ones you love. I told my son that I have to stop "acting" like his mother and just be it. I don't know if he understood me but...

For me the first chapter defines the disease and I take some comfort in that. When I didn't know and didn't understand what was going on with me I felt like no one else in the world acted like I did. But being in this group I hear the same stories and symptoms that are so similar to mine. I am starting to realize that I am not an alien. I am not alone. When I was in the my last relationship I felt so alone, so unheard, so unwanted, so unloved by him and myself. I think the greatest lesson I have taken from this experience is that I am not responsible for how other people act: not my ex, not my parents, not my friends, not my neighbors, no one. If I can hold onto to that I think I am half way there. If I really allow it to sink in, if I really let myself hear it and believe it... It wasn't my fault, nothing was wrong with me, there was nothing I could have done to change them. There was nothing I could have done to heal my mom or my dad. I placed a burden on a little girl that she could not carry and now as a woman I have to release that burden and really understand that I am not here to fix other people's lives, that is their job not mine.

One more thing and then Im done I promise: The author states over and over that WWLTM use other people and toxic relationships to avoid dealing with themselves. She also stated that we are good at figuring out what others need or what they are suffering with. At times I thought I was psychic...I can read people so easily, I can see through them. But when she said that we cant use that power on ourselves she is right. Now, we are so good at telling the men in our lives what they need to do to fix themselves but here we are on this site struggling to recover. Its amazing isn't it. Without a man to focus on right now I cant get my shit together I have no idea what I want to do with my life. I have to dreams no desires and no aspirations. Now that I have dropped the dream that I would be saved I am kind of sitting here like now what. It sucks like hell, lol. But I pray that eventually I will use all that power I have to fix others on myself.

I just wanted to comment on the "loving oneself". I am starting to realize that loving myself is not something that I have to do. It is our natural state of being or rather the essence of who we are when we drop all the beliefs about why we cant love ourselves or cant be loved by others. It is like the state we are born into. When I see babies they are amazed with themselves and the world around them. Even their toes can cause a moment of stillness and wonder within them. My son is 8 and he is at that age where he is starting to "think" about himself more that just being himself. I tell him all the time you are wonderful and special and I am so thankful that God blessed me with the opportunity to share my life and yours together. I really believe that and feel that and I hope he understands that.

Now when my mind tells me or reminds me of something I did or am not doing I say " I can love that too." So far there has not been a belief or experiences I cant understand or love about myself. Now when I look in the mirror and see all of my perfectly imperfect lumps and bumps: I just smile and say I can love that too. Because yes I am this body that is imperfect but when I am at the gym pumping hard and sweating I am that woman also and I have to allow myself to see my good as well as my not so good.

Loving myself no longer means there are things I must do or things I must have. I remember when I was a younger woman I wrote out a list of things I needed to love myself: I needed longer hair, longer nails, a smaller body, a boyfriend, nice clothes.... later in life I cut my hair, now I prefer my nails short, and I just decided that a boyfriend is the last thing I need. Loving myself now means there is no aspect of me that is outside of my love, there are no more hiding places, no more shame, no more guilt. The Bible says (and I am not preaching) that there is nothing outside of God and to my understanding God is love. So in a way my love of myself has passed the earthly love and I hold myself in a kind of unconditional love or at least that is what I am learning to do.

Cant wait to see what other have learned from the book. I think this discussion on the book could serve as a catalyst for us all to go deeper into our understanding of ourselves and recovery. I do realize that I need to temper my expectations so I will attempt to allow things to unfold as they might.

Okay there is lots to respond to! I will just take one tiny piece for now.

"I felt a sting within my heart because I remember how hard I tired not to act eager when meeting new men but how eager I must have appeared. The word desperate is like a knife to my heart. I hate to hear it I hate to think it because it is the thing that I am so ashamed of."

I do know where you are coming from but I'm not convinced this is something you need to beat yourself up about. I doubt these guys saw you and immediately went, "Oh yah, THERE's a desperate one." For one thing, we aren't nearly as transparent as we think. For another, most guys (like women) are focused on their own experience (= fears / insecurities, "will she like me" "i'm not as tall as that guy" etc.). I would guess in fact that they were looking at you going OMG this hot babe is looking like she might actually be interested in me?? It's the negative voice inside you telling you you need to be ashamed. I doubt that in objective reality, you did anything to be ashamed of.

And also, underneath it all we are ALL desperate for love and affection and validation. Men too. Kings and paupers, junkies, CEOs and the guy next door. It's deeply human.

AND ALSO I too have felt like I wanted to cook, clean for a grown man (as my offering) -- in fact, it was the first sign for me that I had fallen in love with Sugar Man (I found myself wanting to darn his socks!!!!!! which has NEVER happened to me with ANYONE). I don't have a problem with me having had that reaction. For one thing, it was so out of character that I actually thought it was funny. But I knew at the same time that it meant something serious. So it's interesting to read of others having the same reaction... I decided it was just some deeply ingrained female nurturing urge and I found this idea quite beautiful. (However I should point out that, even though I felt the urge, I didn't feel any need whatsoever to ACT on it -- I am at heart deeply undomestic. It was more like, "OMG, I want to COOK for some man -- this is worrying." I know that feeling that urge and acting on it can lead to disappointment when the guy has no idea it's a gift and just sees it as your job to provide food or whatever.)

I'm so happy for all your replies and that you want to participate! :D

I am reading now and having a hard time already with stuff surrounding my father coming up. Honestly, it's so awful I want to just run away. I avoid thinking about my father. My mother, I can feel my rage and sadness sometimes but for some reason I avoid thinking about my Dad. I feel like I don't even want to keep reading. Maybe it's a ptsd type avoidance. I'll try to hang in there, though and I am supposed to be starting counseling soon, so maybe that will help.

Oh TokyoRose how I laughed at that - it reminded me of a time when I found myself hanging out my third husbands underwear and being so excited I had his laundry to do!!! It was funny!

I do care for my current husband and he has been brought up that the 'wife' fills that role. His brothers are the same, pathetic - no equality in that area at all. I like it but begrudge it as well. If he ever cooks for himself I feel like I have failed him and apologise profusely….pathetic - I could slap myself. But I know it is all part of my need to have a place and be needed….I mean if I didn't feed him he wouldn't need me - its laughable really!

If he cooked for himself I would praise him extravagantly!!!! LOL! There is some book by some circus animal trainer and she mentions that she started using the same techniques on her husband (only giving him attention when he does good things and otherwise ignoring his behaviour). It is sort of lighthearted but has I think some truth. (There is also a similar article about using dog obedience training on husbands here: http://tinyurl.com/ybv92kp)

Tokyo,

I can see the truth in your statement. Later in most of my relationships when we can talk about first impressions truthfully most of the men I dated thought that I was too good for them (hell, maybe I was). But I can see what you are saying. I was very excited about talking about the book that when I started I think the flood gates opened. Long post and it still seemed like I didn't say all I wanted to say.

I grew up in the South so it was a part of my breeding that women cared for "their" men. I don't disown that aspect of myself. I think there is something "quite beautiful" about caring for the one you love. I think I just need to be mindful about doing it as bargaining vs doing it as a true offering or gift of my love.

Diana,

Funny but I read quickly and it took me hours to finish that one chapter yesterday. I kept putting it down and picking it up. I was thinking about the ex and this and that. Last night I didn't sleep a wink. I watched night turn to day. Despite it all I am just allowing myself to be today. I feel peaceful and extremely tired. I am going to get on the couch and watch tv and just chill today. Don't give up push pass the resistance or write about what is already coming up for you. Sometimes it helps to just get it out so that we can move forward

"doing it as bargaining vs doing it as a true offering or gift of my love" -- amen. there is day-to-day cooking and then there is true-offering cooking and they better learn the difference or else it's Kraft Dinner for them from there on in. [only half-joking]

(Sorry -- not meaning to get the discussion off track.) Loving ourselves: when I was very very young, I think I already felt unvalidated. My parents' marriage had been crumbling for a while and my father hid in work and my mother just got madder and madder. I covered up my fear and confusion by mimicking my mother's (somewhat overbearing) self-confidence and extroversion. I didn't feel confident at all and I am by nature an introvert, but I tried to act otherwise. Except it always came out ringing false. It culminated in my best friends, at one point, publicly renouncing me and then (in a rather nasty turn of events) proceeding to bully and ridicule me. This happened at the same time as my father left us.

That summer was hell and I managed to find solace in my cousin, who lived a few miles away. She was my age and we laughed a lot. It saved me. Then that fall she was killed in a car crash. I had just started high school and had ended up in the same class as one of my bullies. She (as it happens) was an extremely pretty girl and instantly became the most popular girl in the class. I felt completely, utterly isolated and I guess abandoned. My response was to shut down just about completely. My mental image of myself at that time (which appeared often as a doodle in my schoolbooks) was a face with a big piece of duct tape over the mouth. I think that encapsulates who I was and who I stayed for a long, long time.

It's been a long road since then. I am one thousand times better than that poor little girl. But until even recently, the fear of "making noise" still had a hold on me. Loving myself to me means (in part) giving myself the freedom to make noise!