Thanks Sunny, Just been reading up on the manic depressive thing. Before it would have been right up my alley. I am normally all for "do up guys". This time I am treading carefully and trying to stay heart whole...It's one tiny step at a time I keep telling myself..

We call manic depressive BIPOLAR.
its just a whole bag of trouble you dont need.
I got involved in someone with a mentally unstable mother and as she had abused him he was very very damaged. And that damaged me! And my family.
its just best to quit now. Save yourself a lot of heartache.
xxx

Good for you for showing up. It's inspiring to me, and it would seem that the act of recording this and writing it down is therapeutic. It is through reflection that we are able to reach transcendence. Don't feel ashamed or embarrassed in reaching back to past hurtful relationships--your former bf, your sister--and now the emotionally unavailable man. In the writing process this would be a recursive move--in psychology it would be called regression--but it is a part of the process of moving forward, I think, to think and act recursively from time to time.

I sense some deep wounds that have been opened in the disappointment of this businessman friend. It wasn't purely a "friendship" from the sounds of it, as there had been intimacy in the past at some point (and cuddling during this more recent time). So the intimacy has remained in the background, the backdrop of the relationship, the aroma of the food waiting to be consumed tantalizing your sense; the possibility of consuming the desire in the near future. One cannot wait forever when there is something to be savored. And then this ripping away of the attractive morsel by the one who showed such promise! This is big. So be gentle with yourself in your reactions and your plumbings of despair. But understand that this is crisis time, as well. Recognize the potential to resume the mindset of slavery; it is what you understand best (deferring to the preferences of another). In the learning process, when we encounter something new, we feel disorder and disruption--we struggle to regain equilibrium. This is what you are doing right now, but at least now you are talking about it and trying to put a form to what it is that is controlling you. I can't tell you to stay with this situation or go--only you can properly decide this. But continue being mindful, continue the reflection process. Watch and wait.

Love Artgrrl

Sunny, Thank you, yes, I am quite disturbed by what I read about the condition. I hear you loud and clear:)..xx

Art, you get me so well:)..Yes, it was definitely in a league of it's own to have shared intimacy in the past and now to toy with it in our conversations and the kisses and the cuddles. I held back for the first few weeks and it was all driven by him. About a week ago, I realised I was fully invested in wanting the relationship to move to the next level of intimacy. The catch was I had asked him to make sure he wanted a relationship and that I was the one for him. Funny thing is I asked him these two questions when we were originally together and then gave up my boundary to be intimate with him.

The heartening thing for me is to realise that I can now separate out my needs from his quite clearly. I couldn't do this in the past. I think I was doing an extreme form of mirroring with the people I got involved with regardless of whether I was sure I wanted to be with them. I think it must have come from a place of very low self esteem and thinking I was worthless..

Talking to him last night I could see that I was projecting on a lot fantasy and to him we were still very much in the early stages of dating. In his opinion it was his call if we should see each other or not and my job to wait by the phone for his call. Even in the 3 weeks we were together last time, I considered him in my "heartspace" which to me meant we were open with each other about what we wanted and I treated him with preference over my own self. This is the best I could describe the feeling, but something I can now look back and notice as having done many many times in relationships, really early on when I didn't know the person very well. Resuming the friendship this time, to me meant he was already a member of the inner circle. Funny thing is, even he doesn't think he should be forgiven for dumping me abruptly last time:)..

I don't know whether it is to do with this showing up and the support you have all shown me through it all, but this morning things look crystal clear. I don't want to go back to a situation of slavery. I am quite clear on that. Yet, there is something I feel for this guy I want to get out of my system. I don't think the way to do it is to have a relationship with him, but I want to keep talking to him to understand these dynamics better. Maybe I am flirting with danger, but I can now see a lot about him I couldn't see even two weeks ago. I want to learn from the experience without getting burnt if such a thing is possible. He is very honest about his failings and we have real in depth conversations about things; something I have never been able to do with people I have previously dated. Since I am in this deliciously detached state, I even sent him a copy of the list I compiled for my therapist of all his negative traits along with what they meant to me and how I would cope with them in a relationship. I told him it was a theoretical exercise in what it would mean to have a relationship with him where he is allowed to be a real bastard and I do all the understanding, compromising and coping. I doubt based on that list whether even he would want to date himself:)...

I am navigating uncharted waters. I don't know what is right or wrong. I am lonely when I don't have my son and it is nice to have someone to talk to. I am slowly getting out and doing other activities through Meetup groups and rebuilding my life after my last relationship. He is a known quantity in some ways and I guess that is one of his main attractions. I will try to keep on showing up fully on here and let's see if we can all learn something from the experience.

I feel blessed to have all this support. Much love.

I think as long as you stay aware that you are flirting with danger, can keep a lid on the fantasies and are prepared to step away to protect yourself sooner rather than later — well, I too would try the friendship route. In fact, I'm right where you are, having resumed contact after breaking things off two weeks ago . . . Uncharted waters indeed!

My rationale is this. If you truly feel a connection, then maybe it doesn't matter what the actual nature of your relationship is provided you both treat each other with respect. I’ve asked myself, “Can I live with the idea that this may never be more than friendship?” The answer is yes. Reason: it’s more important for me to have him in my life than not. The pain I experienced came from my pushing for things to be more when he kept saying he wasn’t ready. And we got intimate way too fast and that just screwed everything up. I’ve now come to terms with the idea that maybe the romantic thing just isn’t meant to be, but his friendship means a lot to me and I know my friendship means a lot to him too. So like you, I just want to keep the conversation between he and I open. (We’ve stopped being intimate BTW which makes it easier to consider friendship.)

I guess there’s always the danger of falling in love with him all over again; but this past year I’ve learned so much about who I am and how that plays into any relationship dynamics, so I feel far better equipped to protect myself. This time I just want to focus on what I enjoy about him and leave all the romantic fantasy out of it. We’ll see what happens. But I’m committed to protecting myself. I'll be very interested to see what happens with you.

For me it has come down to this: what am I willing to risk in order to be free? Sometimes that has meant ultimatums. When I first started going out with my current bf we became sexually involved right away, so the basis in my reactions to finding out about things that, if I were to be really honest,I disliked: I chose the path of deciding to stay with him as the default. There was an initial thing that presented itself immediately, and if I knew what I did now I would have thought "girl, he is not a good match for you, don't even get involved". Because for the most part I would say he was pretty transparent--he didn't try to hide who he was. I,on the other hand, hid much of what I was about. From the beginning he stated that most of his friends were female. This should have rang an alarm bell, but desire clouded my judgement. As well, he didn't hide the fact that he went to nude beaches, and in the past--during his past relationship--he would have his female friends come to the beach with him (his partner at the time didn't like the sun so apparently didn't mind him taking other females with him. Not sure if she really was ok with it, but he claims she was). I stated from the get-go that that would be grounds for a break-up for us if he took a female friend with him to the nude beach. Not once did he push it. HOWEVER, one of his female friends (now a former beach companion) interfered in our relationship like a ring around the collar on a white shirt. Initially--in an effort to be "fair" to him and not try to "control" him--I tried to be nice to her and even would invite her to stuff, tried to be a friend to her, the whole nine yards. Yet I felt uncomfortable with the liberties she would take with him. She just did NOT get it how you act around a guy who's in a relationship. This went on until her presence became a conflict between my bf--it was the main focus of our relationship, it was crazy. He would claim this was all platonic and on his end I think it was, but he refused to even entertain the thought that her motives might be suspect. So it was this nutty dance of her constantly doing stuff that got under my skin, me complaining to him, and him getting upset and saying he was starting to think he didn't know me anymore and after all this time we'd been together,didn't I trust him? Eventually it came to a head where I told him I didn't feel comfortable with them having coffee together without me there or her coming to his place if I wasn't there. The part of me that should have been saying "girl! are you retarded?" was obviously malfunctioning, a long time ago I should have told him to ditch her completely because she made me feel uncomfortable but when you're empathetic you constantly see things from the other person's perspective to the detriment of yourself. I figured he'd ditch me when I told him about me having to be there, but he didn't. I told him he could walk if he didn't like how I felt about that. When my self-respect got to the level where I thought to myself there's no fucking way I want this woman anywhere near me or him, I was hesitant to let him know this because I thought this would be pushing it too far. I was still doing the over-empathetic thing, seeing things too much from his perspective. But I finally could see that I wanted nothing to do with her and that if her were to insist that she be a part of his/my life then I would leave. He has slowly, in the past month, started to see that she is quite manipulative, but he hadn't realized the extent to which I wanted her GONE from my life, that I was no longer willing to play this game in any way, shape, or form. I kept worrying about how it would go down, but in an unexpected way last Sunday I told him I didn't want her in my life anymore, and he promptly responded that he didn't want her in his life, either. It was almost a non-issue that way it went down--I wasn't upset when I said it, in fact it was in response to a different topic--it was more of an aside. So here is what I think: from the start I said no nude beaches with other women--he was fine with that. What if I'd said, "we only hang out with other couples, we don't have our special friends of the opposite gender" (I'm not saying everyone should have this stipulation, but it personally bothers me when my guy has a special female friend). Sure, he might have hit the road,but I wouldn't have been accepting crumbs as it were. Here I spent close to three years accepting crumbs, when from the start the relationship could have been a lot better. Or maybe there wouldn't have been a relationship but at least I would have had my self-respect intact.I wasted so much time trying to figure him out instead of trying to figure out who I was and what I wanted (and it's an ongoing process, as you know). Do you think that if you just laid it on the table with buddy and told him you wanted the whole loaf of bread--that this wasn't about trying to figure him out, trying to understand him, or whatever, but about what you needed to be satisfied? Because I'm realizing that when I'm calling the shots (translated to the mindset of a woman who loves too much: simply respecting yourself) he jumps up to meet my needs pretty quickly,and damn if it doesn't feel good.

Thanks Tokyo, Glad I am not the only one in this situation. I still remember the first time I saw him. We had chatted for about 3 weeks online and decided to meet up for a coffee on the beach. He was texting me to say there was a coffee cart but they only took cash when I walked up to him. He turned around and I had the most unexpected feeling of having known him before. Something in me said "I know you". He came up to me and gave me a hug and that was the start of the most amazing connection I had ever felt with another human being. Even he says our first 3 weeks felt like 6 months..

Now 18 months after all of that, the connection is still very strong. He says he can feel what I am feeling when he holds my hand.

Despite all his baggage I have mentioned above, he is a loving dad of a 4 year old boy and 6 year old girl who he has shared custody of. He manages a full time job with taking care of the kids and looking after the house. In the last 18 months he saved up enough for a deposit to buy himself a house and has already dug up a vegetable garden and started clearing out the section. He is one of the most "together" people I know apart from my ex husband, the main difference being he and I can communicate in a way my ex and I never could. He is honest, free of addictions, financially stable and leads a healthy lifestyle. The fact he is good looking and attractive are just icing on the cake.

I have read enough Baggage Reclaim posts to know that the good and the bad are the same person. And this time around, I know enough about him to not put him on a pedestal and see him for the somewhat damaged human being he is. Trying to separate out the fantasy of a relationship and be friends is difficult as you say. I too feel a lot more equipped to deal with things now than I ever did. Watch this space:)...

it should read "if he were to insist", not "if her were to insist"

Art, while I was reading your post, I was going "yay!, she has finally got it". So glad you have come to this realisation.

It is interesting how much your story mirrors mine with my last boyfriend that I broke up 2 months ago. The only difference was instead of giving ultimatums, I argued, but stayed. I wasn't scared of telling him how I felt, but when push came to shove, instead of walking, I gave him another chance. So you are so correct in saying "what are we willing to risk in order to be free". Looking back, I think it was fear. I so wanted to be in the relationship, so I tried to make it work. It took 6 months to get rid of a woman he met on a dating site who kept ringing him up all the time, refusing to take no for an answer. In the end he had to change his work phone number because the only other option was reporting her to the police for harassment. I so get what you say about your bf's beach buddy. We have to be prepared to walk and that was my weakness. How I wished I had done that really early on in the relationship and what a lot of grief it would have saved me.

With my accountant friend, I have already said to him I want a relationship with all possibilities included (the whole shebang:) if your remember my previous post). When talked about how it would difficult for us to find time to be together with the 40 minute distance and kids and work, I said I wanted a man who would move mountains to be with me. He laughed saying " you mean with a spade"..But he got the idea. In fact this is one of the reasons he is running scared. He wants me, but is scared I won't settle for crumbs and that I want an equal say in what happens between us. He says that is a lot of commitment up front and he is not sure he can give me that. Because of how honest he has been with me, he has nothing to hide behind and pretend. I hold him accountable.

Yesterday he said he wants us to be friends until one of us dies. It's not very practical because like you I cannot handle my bf having "special female friends" and don't want to do that to another woman. But I get what he means. The friendship obviously means something to him.

And finally, what you said about having too much empathy and always trying to see both sides of the story often to your own detriment. That fits me to a tee and I have often thought all this empathy was a curse....Learning to love and accept myself has helped me immensely in balancing out that empathy with my own personal well being.

My therapist told me to try and not be therapist to my boyfriend because once you start doing that he put you in a box where you do not have needs and you are there solely for ensuring his well being..This was last year when I was still with my ex bf. I now know how true this is. The empathy thing makes this even more complicated because you are trying to be them and their therapist and their girlfriend:)...

So so true what your therapist said about avoiding being their therapist. In my relationships--both with men and women--I felt so important to feel I was as good as a therapist. Ugh. And it seems like the energy in the relationship would usually fall to them needing to be listened to. To be honest, I'd say I still do way more listening than having a sympathetic ear. This Saturday I was talking to a social acquaintance of mine and I put my needs out like I was totally entitled--that I needed a full-time job, that there was no way in hell I would sub for longer than a year--that I was above that. Well, if she didn't start talking to her administrator about me, asking if there were any openings at the school. It is surprising how once you start valuing yourself other people sit up and take notice. We've talked about this before, how things start clicking into place when you want the "whole shabang" (yes, I remember!). Now that you are describing this more about this business man, I am seeing a bigger picture. I wish you well in this, Lucida--I'm rooting for a happy ending to your love story--but most of all, that you get your needs met.

What a revelation Art...Stating your needs like you are entitled to. I had never thought of it that way. I am so very glad you are in this good place. And like my friend who is really into Law of Attraction says, you get what you put out...When you state your needs confidently, the Universe sits up and notices. You might start noticing lots of other changes in your life too...And I am sure they will all be positive:)....

Thank you for your kind wishes..I like said earlier this is uncharted waters; standing up for what I want and being ready to walk away from the relationship and offer friendship instead...Will keep you posted..