But pathological lying is? Pathological means problematic to the extent it may interfere with functioning. Pathological jealousy would be beyond the scope of "normal", again relative, jealousy that us experienced by "normal" people. Yes someone can be pathological in orderliness if it prevents them maintaining a job or leaving the house. Pathology does not mean personality disorder. Kris, I understand your sensitivity but it borders on defensiveness to a term that does not mean one is mentally ill. It means they have maladaptive behaviors, traits, neuroses, etc.

Other than a highly empathetic personality I do not believe that there is anything about me that is pathological that invited a PSN into my life. I agree with a previous poster who wrote about taking blame and the majority of people feeling like both people in a couplehood are to blame. I used to do that to myself...ask myself what I did....what I could have done to change the outcome.....what it was about ME. And then I received some mental health help to deal with surviving a sociopathic relationship and began to heal. I now know that it is not my fault. There is nothing about me that caused this. I accept 0% of the blame and never will again. I was tricked and gas-lighted into believing the unbelievable by someone who is disordered and had way more time to devote to fucking up someone else's life than I did. Frankly, love....your implication that a victim has a pathology that lead to this is offensive. Maybe you are still in the beginning stages of grief and therefore do not know how to process (it is a common stage) and are using this board to work this out. I will try not to take this personally but I am too far into my healing path to even entertain that idea. What a giant step backward for someone further on the path than I guess you are. I hope you leave behind the idea that somehow you caused the PSN to choose you based upon something that is wrong with you. Try the book Women Who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown. It was instrumental in my healing.

Maybe that's it Live. I don't feel like a victim. Then thing I couldn't stand in him was his victim role. I won't be him. He won't make me a victim. There were points early on when I knowingly continued the relationship when he was lying, cheating etc. I made that choice. He may have used me as a victim early on to target me but once the mask began to Crack AND I stayed....I was no longer a victim - I was making a choice. That is where my own pathology plays a role in this. It was my own weakness that kept me there.

Pathological refers to a symptom within a complex of a medical spectrum, disease or diagnosis. And, as you point out, patholgical anything, interferes with daily life functioning.

Pathological lying interferes with the liar's life and relationships. So there is intensity, frequency, and disruption of a normal life.

Pathological lying, rarely (if ever) exists by itself, separate from a complex of other disruptive and disturbing behaviors such as manipulativeness, conning, superficial charm, disregard for the rights of others, lack of empathy, lack of remorse, shallow emotional life, and failure to accept responsbility for behavior (some of Hare's Psychopathy Checklist--in this case, psychopathy).

If someone lies, occasionally, they are not a patholgical liar. Pathological refers to a disease process. A person who, for example, who lies to cover up embarrasssment, very occasionally, would be referred to differently, such as a compusive liar.

I do not believe that any trait, existing within a normal parameter, can be called "patholgical,"not even lying. Although, I don't lie, I assume some non-pathological people do lie, very occasionally.

Some traits, obviously, would be patholigcal, in any view, or to any extent--for example--sexual interest in children. There would certainly be other pathological traits present in such a person. I don't think that one pathological trait would ever exist alone--there would be other traits present, within a complex of pathology.

I am actually very grateful for the topic you brought up. I have recently saw that my dad has exactly the same "boyish"pair of pants I saw the psychopath with one time. My dad was emotionally abusive and very manipulative. Then I had an online relationship at 13 years old with a man who was also emotionally abusive and then the psychopath came and then another one came who was very much like the psychopath, just a year younger. But he conned women for money because he didn't want to work. And I swore I am breaking the pattern.

I am coming to terms (this week in fact) with the fact that I have some major OCPD tendencies. One of those being that I have a hard time making decisions because I'm never sure if I'm making the "right" decision. So I often second-guess myself. The reason I believe this has caused me to end up with cluster B's and stay longer than I should have is because it takes me a long time to gather enough evidence to "know" that I'm making the right choice by leaving. I think a "normal" person would see a couple red flags and get away pretty quick, within a few weeks (or never get involved to begin with). Whereas, with me, I see red flags but worry that if I walk away I'm not giving this person the benefit of the doubt, or what if I'm overreacting, or what if they're working on their issues, etc...

So for example, with the guy I've been with lately (AvPD/OCPD), I saw red flags literally as soon as I met him. I found some shady stuff in his past. I saw he had serious issues with communicating at even a basic level and couldn't hold a conversation. But he talked about his "commitment to self growth." He talked about how people can change but they have to really want to, they have to do it for themselves, not for someone else, and that it takes a long time. He talked as though he had been in support groups/therapy for years, using all the lingo. So I thought I should give him the benefit of the doubt, if I walk away now, what if I'm missing out on a good thing because I'm being too judgemental? So I gave him a chance.

More red flags came up, I broke up with him. He came around saying he wanted to work on his issues, he was doing it for himself, not for me, asked for book suggestions, ordered self-help books, etc. So I thought, well he's actually putting effort into this. He's saying all the right things, in the right ways. If I walk away now, what if he really is willing to try? That's more than any other guy I've been with. What if I miss out on a good thing because I didn't give him the opportunity to work on it? What if I leave someone who's willing to work on his issues, and end up with another psychopath again next? So I gave him another chance... and so on...

This back and forth has gone on for 9 months. When I'm with him, I focus on the negatives and don't think I want him. When we're apart, I think about all the positive qualities he has and feel like I've been too judgemental. What I'm learning is that this second-guessing is part of OCPD (and I have a million other OCPD tendencies as well). And he's EXTREMELY OCPD, so that just makes the dynamic even crazier.

I am not sure normal people would get away from a Cluster B PD person within a few weeks, Agent. There are 6,000 very normal-sounding articulate people over on psychopathfree.com. We all had some different--and many similar--reasons for staying after we noticed something wrong. I thought my guy was bi-polar, and he indicated that he was. He had so many good offerings--funny, fun, articulate, communicative, loved music, was a musician, lived in a beautiful isolated place, liked to do things, similar interests. We were both late fities, and I never expected to meet a man I liked as well at that late stage. I decided I could handle his mood swings, though he could be quite vicious several days a week. I also have a disability--mine is of a physical kind.

The first year was long distance, so I did not see all of his life. I did not know he was he a lying, cheating, conning, manipulative, back-stabbing psychopath. An event near the end of of the first year tore off his cover, I left for a few weeks, but after 6 months to a year in relationship, the victim of a P is in a danger zone. Likely, the oxytocin bond is so strong, that, with enough lies and bullshit from the psychopath, she OFTEN goes back. And goes back. And goes back, even when she knows or suspects he is a P. Otherwise normal people do this. We are not quite normal--any of us--while under the spell of a psychopath.

What did I say to myself once I knew what he was? I said, "I know he loves me. He is motivated enough to change, no matter what all the literature says. He will be the first one in medical history." Rational? No. Did this happen? Of course not. Was I crazy? A little bit when I was thinking like that. Bur for the vicitms, this condition is temporary.

Live, I so agree with you that, talking about the "pathology" of psychopath's victim is off-base and distasteful. Why? Because it has caused, in many cases, lifelong harm, to victims of a type of abuse that is of such an ill-intentioned and underhanded nature, that almost anyone can fall prey. Suggesting a victim is, or did something to cause it is like suggesting a rape victim was not properly dressed or behaved flirtatiously or did something to invite the abuse.

Many people in this conversation about psychopathic abuse are attempting to clarify that psychopathic abuse is of a similar nature as that of a mugging, rape, or home invasion. It is a stranger crime in the sense that the psychopath lies to his victim about who he is. Victims are led to believe a romantic partner loves and cares for us when, in fact, he wants to see her humiliated and destroyed.

love, I do feel defensively protective of ALL victims of psychopaths when there is a conversation about the "pathology" of the victims.

There are too many uninformed therapists out there who mistakenly believe this is a valid path of inquiry. I feel it is a dangerous one to psychopath victims suffering PTSD and attempting to recover.

I seek to prevent this from ever happening to me again. In order to do so, I must be aware of the traits and characteristics that I brought to that relationship. I am NOT for the 10th time insinuating that anyone ever be blamed for being a victim. What I am saying is that I can learn all I want about him/them but if I fail to look at MY own maladaptive traits I will no doubt fall for the exact type of person I did. We are creatures of habit. We know they select their victims carefully. I don't want to be in that role again. In order for me not to be, I need to dissect my own issues that, yes, allowed/continued me to be a pawn in this game. Whether you call it pathological, issues, weaknesses, vulnerabilities - it all is the same to me. As a therapist if I counseled a patient on him only without looking at the role of the victim - I would not be looking at things from A Systems Perspective. Now, again, in now way am I blaming or shaming any victim. I would never do that.

It is good for a victim to examine her own issues, as long as it its kept clear that these issues did not make her into a psychopath target. Except in the case of being an extreme empath, there are no known characteristics a psychopath targets.

The best a P victim could do would be learn the red flags of abusers, strengthen her boundaries and belief in her intuition in order to lessen the length of time it takes for her to escape of a red flag relationship.

I fear a past victim could become convinced she is, for example, "a P magnet," if her issues are connected in therapy to what happened to her.

Again, for me, your topic of discussion is very important and I am grateful you brought it up because the psychopath tried to make it seem as though destiny, circumstances brought the abuse and the character of the relationship and it's end. It was a decision made on both sides after we met and he is part of my pattern and so I am part of his pattern.

Thank you Dana and Kris and Live. We DO have patterns; it's the him way. This was my first SP but I want to make sure it's my last. I hear many people on sites have been targeted or victimized sometimes by several partners. This is why it is essential for any of us to be aware of our patterns. Almost all the victims with my EX came from broken homes, abandonment, father alienation etc. They need adoration, addiction, and empathy. I don't believe just anyone would fall prey to that. These monsters seek out the "right" person. I need to be aware of what is about ME that makes me vulnerable. I can know all I want about red flags but that won't help me unless I know about ME and how red flags work with ME. I had red flags all over the place with the Ex and yet I stayed. Knowing about them is crucial but knowing oneself is essential.

And thank you agent too!

The human way not him way

I agree that it is important to look at our own issues. That does not imply that we are at fault for being victims of malicious people. But there are certain traits that psychopaths look for in a victim, which is why most of us have experienced it more than once. And others go through life without ever having to deal with psychopaths, first hand. It is important to distinguish that having our own issues does not imply that we deserved abuse or that we somehow caused it. They are still responsible for their behaviors.

I spent many years focusing on the psychopaths and their traits and behaviors. I've asked everyone I know, over and over, "why does this keep happening? why won't it stop?" It took a really long time for me to start to turn the focus to me. That really didn't start to happen until this recent relationship because it was clear that I had so much in common with this guy.

I think both phases were critical in my journey.

My ability to psychoanalyze others helped me spot his issues before I was able to see that I had the same issues (just not to the same extent). As I've said all along, although this relationship has caused me tremendous pain, it has brought me so much insight that I would not have had if I had run off from the beginning. I've learned so much about myself that it's truly astounding. I literally feel like I've reached some kind of enlightenment. I feel like I'm on a whole new level of understanding now. And it's brought so much relief and peace. I finally see myself in a way I never had before. I'm finally able to let go of things that I had held onto for so long. Everything is finally coming together for me in a way I have never experienced. It's almost all rushing in at me. It's like these things have been trying to get through to me all along but I was blocking them, not allowing them to sink in. Now the floodgates have opened and I'm just overwhelmed by all these new feelings, sensations, thoughts, awarenesses. It's hard to even put it into words. I'm so overwhelmed lately that it's hard to even formulate any thoughts. I am just trying to take it all in and make sense of it all.