Roses, a lot of disorders can appear to be narcissism or psychopathy, especially other personality disorders. I just dated a guy who was diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder and obsessive compulsive personality disorder. He scores in the late teens on the psychopathy checklist as well, which is technically the "non psychopathic criminal" category. To a lot of people, he might seem like a psychopath (and some have called him a narcissist), if they don't know enough about psychology to differentiate the different disorders. Those are the two terms most people hear so everyone jumps to that conclusion pretty quickly when they realize someone they're dealing with is disordered. Even to a trained person, it is very difficult sometimes to differentiate these disorders and there is a lot of overlap. I would constantly go over Hare's checklist again and again for this guy because I kept thinking he might be a psychopath based on his behaviors. But he never scored high enough. Then, when I started studying the other personality disorders, I realized he was textbook cluster C, which is what he ultimately got diagnosed with. But they can appear VERY cold and callous, like a psychopath. I've unfortunately been involved with two actual psychopaths in the past, so I was able to see a difference in behavior patterns, despite the overlap. That's how I knew something was different with this one. But the point is you do realize something is wrong. And it doesn't really matter WHICH disorder someone has. I've learned that with this last guy. Knowing he's not a psychopath or narcissist does not change the fact that he is impossible to be in a relationship with. Even though he's in therapy now and on meds, he is still struggling with the same problem behaviors that make him impossible to deal with.

Agent, thank you so much for your very informative response. The last day or so, I have realized that yes, a lot of disorders can appear to be narcissism or psychopathy. My very immediate concern, after I learned of these medical terms on March 14th, after which my whole life changed, is my son's little baby. I just learned of the word "psychopath" and connected it to him, for the first time in 20 years on March 14th, therefore, all this is very new to me right now. The first thought of concern and fear came to me because of his little baby. How he must be emotionally responding to the baby's demands. If he can be so cruel to me, is he cruel to the little baby? Should I tell his wife and his mother in law? How can I talk about and destroy him, without really knowing what is his true diagnosis? He has a high paid job, an expensive house and a busy life. I almost met with the mother in law and told her, but am glad it hasn't happened yet. I just don't know what to do. My son does not talk to me at all, it has now completely stopped.

Agent, I feel so hopeless to learn that even a trained person can sometimes find it difficult to differentiate these disorders and there is a lot of overlap. Right now all this is so new to me, that I don't know what Cluster C means? Did the guy you dated, opted to go do the test with a trained psychologist? Is that how he got diagnosed? Please tell me who does the diagnosis, a psychiatrist or psychologist? How long did it take, how many appointments? You say that he is on meds, I thought that they are born with personality disorders, that nothing can change them. Did he get brain scans done? Do you have any good doctors names to share?

I know that I have seen my son, when he was doing drugs at the beginning, at age 15, without a conscience. I saw his face, his demeanor, he had no conscience. But later, he seemed to have developed a conscience, unless he is pretending. He is actually very well liked by others and is so charming in social circles. I am not sure what his wife thinks of him, they have been together for the last 4 - 5 years. But she is a very strong girl and comes from a culture where divorce is not on the table, so I can imagine how she will live through a hellish life without any thought of leaving him. I had done the same thing for many years. They are having their second baby in a couple months. Since he has closed all avenues for me to know anything about him, I don't know what others think of him. But the relationship between him and I is shocking. He says things about me with full conviction that I did this or that, which I absolutely haven't done. He says things which are so convincing to others. I feel that he knows I know the truth about him, so he is trying to make me look crazy, so that others can begin to see me that way too. He has been very succcessful.

This is my only son, but I am so sick and tired of him, that I am more than willing to move very far from him, and have nothing to do with him for the rest of my life. However, I am so saddened by my thoughts, if this person has no love for his mother, how must he be dealing with this little boy. Can you imagine, his wife has no clue, and trusts her baby with this man? How must he be responding to the emotional demands of his little baby? I feel like dying when I think of the torture, if any, this little baby must be going through. If someone has no emotions, how must he be responding to a crying baby. Can he soothe a baby? I feel sick and want to just not live anymore, the feeling is so painful to me.

Would you know how a person who has very low emotions such as my son, would deal with a little baby, his own child? Would he be able to recognize his emotional needs? I don't think my son can be violent, he has had 3 little dogs for ages and takes really good care of them, buying them extra nice meals, walking them, making them comfortable. I guess i will never find out what happened to him, or why I am his main target in life. Yes, I feel that I am his main target. The more he hates me, it seems like he achieves something. He has bascially destroyed me in my family, everyone looks at me through his eyes. My problem is that I have my close family living overseas, they know me only through Facebook and phone conversations, and meeting at weddings and other special occasions for 2 weeks, every 3 years or so. Therefore, according to them, he is a tall, charming man, and I am his grumpy mother, which is how he portrays me, however, I know the truth, I have seen lived through his behaviors, his lack of conscience and emotions.

The most shocking part is that these so called "normal" people such as his wife and mother in law, don't see that it is so abnormal to hate your mother. Who in this whole wide world can really truly hate their mother, unless she has done something to him? I have millions of pictures to prove his very happy childhood. I think he found me to be a good victim to use to hide himself.

I hope you are not seeing this guy anymore. Please don't ruin your life. get away from him, which I hope you have done. He will ruin your whole life. No matter how small his problem may be, or if he is in therapy, it is better to be alone than to be with someone like that. And remember, if you have children, the genes can pass through to you children, which is what happened to me. I am sorry about my spelling errors or sentence structure, I am just too exhausted. I hope you can understand. Thanks so much.

Hello Roses:

Good to see you back. Yes, I have used Hare's checklist tool. My daughter's score comes up as 22, which puts her below the psychopath spectrum, however, I can only guess on some of the questions. For instance, the test asks if the person connects with others emotionally. I really can't answer some of those questions with certainty because these types of people often fake things, including emotions.

Here's what I do know. She has been lying, law-breaking, using hard drugs, manipulating, stealing, deceiving, and smearing people behind their backs since grade school. She is never to blame, never at fault, takes no responsibility for anything, throws around accusations of "abuse" when she has had nothing short of a storybook childhood and she is ALWAYS someone's victim. She has had issues with people in school, teachers, co-workers, family members, friends, and of course her biggest target ME. In general she is irresponsible, impulsive, careless with money, and reckless with her own well-being and the well-being of others in her life.

She has been to a couple of therapists but will never admit to any of this. The most I've heard from a therapist is that she has 'substance abuse' issues and is "self-medicating" for anxiety issues. And one therapist told her she has "intimate relationship conflicts". Whatever that means. She doesn't want therapy, she only went in high school because they forced her to when she got caught doing drugs at school. Then recently as a young adult she went to a couple of doctors because she wanted a prescription for tranquilizers. One of the doctors accused her of "doctor-shopping" to get drugs. When they recommend therapy or antidepressants for the anxiety, she blows them off and walks out.

As AgentSmith was saying, these disorders can overlap. My daughter definitely has a substance abuse problem and anxiety issues IN ADDITION to being on the Anti-Social-Personality-Disorder spectrum, even though there is no official diagnosis from a doctor. I really don't need one since I lived with her her whole life and I know her WAY better than any therapist. She can fool a therapist anyway. She can't fool me though because I've been on the receiving end of her non-sense since she was old enough to have an intellect. And the curtain has finally lifted.

As far as your son. A lot of what you say runs parallel to what my daughter does. She is smearing me on Facebook and to friends and family. Complete falsehoods. She is 21 now, but has been doing this to me for years. If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about what your son is making people think of you. Most people really don't care about other people's "drama" anyway, because they are too wrapped up in themselves. Also, I've begun to look at it like this: Why should I care about the opinion of someone who isn't bright enough to know that another side of the story might exist?. What kind of person just believes completely outrageous statements without any independent thought or doubt? Especially people who KNOW me in real life. Don't assume that everyone believes him either. Many people just don't want to get involved. If friends/family want to believe that she needed "medical attention" when she "tried to leave" my home, they can believe it. As far as I'm concerned, it's so outrageous that it's not even response-worthy. My daughter knows as well as I do that I was nothing short of a push-over with her, always walked on eggshells with her, always defended her and had her back her entire life, always forgave her lies and smearing, supported her in every possible way, and loved her unconditionally. And I still do. But I can't have her in my life. Her infractions and accusation have gotten more serious. In addition, she got tired of the act and had to let her mask drop off. She has moved on to her next target, her boyfriend that she speaks poorly of behind his back (just as she did with me). He is deep in her web now, he thinks I'm a nut of course, but in a couple of years it will be him who will be left devastated and picking up the pieces when his "use by" date is up and she moves onto the next target, who she is no doubt already grooming.

It's a sick cycle. I don't know how we are supposed to let go. I wish I knew. I had everything I could do to not put together an Eastern package for her and drop it off (she lives with the boyfriend about 5 miles away). She is 21 and this is the first Easter that I didn't shop for her. It was sad going to the stores this past week and seeing all the Easter things around. It was hard to not pick out some trinkets and chocolate and gifts as I always had. This is the first Easter without her in my life...next will be my first mother's day, her birthday, then the first Christmas that I don't shop for her. It's very very sad. But it has to be. I don't know how we are supposed to come to terms with this. Maybe I never will. I don't know.

As far as your grandchildren. First of all, they also have a mother present, so unless she's a psycho as well, the children will probably be just fine. Plus, the way your son loves and cares for his dogs, he may also love and care for his children. These types do seem to be selective when it comes to having feelings. I'm not so convinced that people with this disorder have no feelings or emotions, but rather they can turn those feelings and emotions on and off and control who gets the good treatment and who gets abused. Don't imagine the worst about your grandchildren being left crying in the crib. I don't know why we torture ourselves with these types of images but I do the same thing thinking my daughter will die in a car wreck from her drinking problem or something. It's just idle worry. Half of the stuff we worry about probably wont' happen. And you really don't know if he "hates" you. I don't know either. My daughter's last words to me were "love you always". That was right before she went on facebook to write lies about me. The point I'm trying to make is that I think these types are fully conscious that they are doing wrong, but something makes them HAVE to be a victim to someone. And who better than the mother?

When did you see your son? And are you sure he is still saying bad things about you? Do you try to contact him or his wife at all? Supposedly those who are lower on the spectrum have some hope of outgrowing this behavior when they get close to the age of 40ish. I'm wondering if your son has become worse, better, or stayed the same.

Roses, I'm going to try to address your questions as best as I can.

Cluster C is the 3rd cluster of personality disorders. There are 3 clusters: A, B, and C. Cluster A are disorders that are odd and eccentric. Cluster B's are the bad ones, psychopaths, narcissists, etc. And Cluster C are the very introverted, avoidant, socially awkward type. I posted a topic called "Personality Disorders" which has a couple links to youtube videos that do a really good job explaining the different personality disorders. You might want to check that out.

Yes, the guy I dated did finally seek help, at 42 years old. But that is very uncommon for personality disordered people, and unheard of for cluster B's. He has been diagnosed with 2 cluster C personality disorders and aspergers and they are looking into brain damage as well. He is currently seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist. I think either can provide diagnosis. His two are working together. He is on meds for anxiety (to help with the social anxiety component) and antidepressants. Cluster C's can benefit from meds because their disorders are rooted in anxiety, particularly social anxiety. But there is not much hope for Cluster B's and therapy usually makes them worse. They will usually not volunteer for therapy because they'll never admit that anything is wrong with them (but a lot of people don't realize there is anything wrong with them, despite which disorder they may have). Cluster B's will use the tools they learn in therapy to further their abuse. They become more efficient abusers basically. I've seen them court ordered into programs and they come out more malicious and more manipulative because they can talk like someone who is very healthy, like someone who has been in therapy/support groups for years, when really it's just a tool to trick you. So I would never recommend therapy for a cluster B. My guy was diagnosed with (I hope I can remember the sequence correctly) Avoidant Personality Disorder in the first 45 min session with the psychiatrist. I'm not sure which dr diagnosed him with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder but that one got added on after a few more sessions (not sure how many because I wasn't talking to him at the time). With him it was very obvious that something was off about him. Cluster B's usually do a much better job of hiding their disorder to outsiders. My guy was then diagnosed with aspergers syndrome (all of this was within 3 months of therapy, 1 session a week for the psychologist and less frequently for the psychiatrist). I'm not sure exactly how long it took for all these disorders to be diagnosed because I was not on speaking terms with him for about 3 months. Then they thought he might have frontal lobe (the personality section of the brain) brain damage. So he is waiting on a list to see a neuropsychologist and get a brain scan. Brain scans are not used to diagnose personality disorders. Only for research of personality disorders, currently. They have found that the brain of a psychopath is different than of a regular person, but the science is nowhere near the point where they use it as a diagnostic tool yet. So his brain scan appt is specifically for brain damage. He was in several accidents as a kid, where he hit his head and got knocked out. Again, his behavior is very different from normal, so it is obvious that something is wrong with him, right away. The Cluster C PDs and aspergers cover a lot of his behavior but there is still more. Like he NEVER keeps a commitment, EVER. He always avoids doing what he says he'd do. And he totally checks out and doesn't respond during times when he's supposed to follow through on commitments. He disappears for weeks or months on end and avoids human interaction. So it's either some sort of extreme anxiety and he's dissociating (they're even looking into Dissociative Identity Disorder for him, formerly known as Multiple Personality Disorder), or some sort of brain damage, or he's just a total asshole. Hard to say which.

You mention a drug problem. Drug addiction can definitely manifest itself to look like a mental disorder. People who are addicted to drugs can definitely behave like psychopaths, but not necessarily be psychopaths. It can just be the drugs. Then again, many psychopaths use drugs as well. So you have to be careful with that one.

I agree with Marie, don't try to control his smear campaign. Most people eventually learn who the bad guy is in these situations. I've been the victim of 2 psychopaths and afterward, talked to other victims of theirs. They eventually figured it out as well. So he may go running his mouth, but eventually, the people he's lying to will see him for who he really is. Most people eventually figure it out. If he's treating you like shit, then he's probably treating his wife like shit, at least some of the time. And she may eventually leave him and take the kid with her.

I don't have kids so it's hard for me to offer any suggestions. But if he has any disorders, it has to be up to him to get help. He has to want it. Even if he were forced into therapy, it wouldn't help, unless he wanted it. And it wouldn't help if he is a cluster B. I didn't force my ex to get help. What I did do is made sure everyone knew the truth about him. He was exposed for all the lies he had been telling everyone. I made sure everyone in his social circle knew the truth, and made him fess up to his behavior. After everyone reacted to the truth, I think he realized what a complete asshole he had been to everyone and decided he didn't want to treat people like shit anymore. He went on his own to get therapy and has gone for several months now, on a weekly basis, on his own. In a lot of ways, learning how screwed up he is has made him even worse. His depression and anxiety have escalated, it's possible that the meds are making him even worse. Or that he is just finally having to face reality after a lifetime of living in denial and that's creating a lot of anxiety. I have moved on. I haven't seen him in months, rarely talk to him, and am trying to find someone better. If he ever does get to be even remotely close to "normal", it will take years of hard work. That's my best advice for dealing with anyone disorders, especially if they aren't accepting responsibility and aren't working on themselves. Stay away. I know you're worried about his kids and I'm not sure what options there are in that regard, so I can't offer any suggestions. We always worry about other victims but there's not a lot we can do most of the time.

AgentSmith....Great info. I think my daughter leans towards the cluster B, but not to an extreme where she is violent or anything like that. The story about your ex makes me feel hopeful.

I am new to the site and still learning to navigate. Can you please tell me how I can see your writings and the links to to the Youtube videos that you referenced?

Thank you!

Marie

Marie & Agent - thanks to both of you for your uplifting responses. I will be writing back soon. Marie - The situation you are facing with your daughter right now is EXACTLY what I faced in 2001 with my son. That's how it started. Did I forget to mention that once the College Police arrested him with drugs in the dorm room, and he was charged with a felony (yes, he had 1 lb. marijuana in his dorm room), from then on things got improved. Now, I was the one to call the police, although the police did not arrest him then, but maybe they kept him in the radar. When I realized that he might die, if nothing happened, then I called the police. We don't want them to get involved in the criminal justice system, if that happens, the lawyer told me than it is really tough to get them out of the system. The laws are not friendly. After he was charged and kicked out of the college, I paid a lawyer $7,000 right away, to fight his case, and put him in a drug program. I paid the lawyer, however, the lawyer wont communicate with me, saying your son does not want his privacy revealed to you, imagine that? So, the lawyer never told me anything about the case. That same time, my son moved to San Diego. He did his drug program there and I used to send him $100 per class or something like that, and he had a good girlfriend, a girl with integrity and class. I call her an angel. My son went back to City College in San Diego and had all A's for that semester. Then I relaxed and new he would be okay. His girlfriend was with him, so I felt lucky. I wanted to move to San Diego, but he said, that if I did, he would move out of San Diego to someplace else.

I am writing you my story, hoping that maybe you can save your child by calling the police. Even if they go to jail, that is fine too. But being out there uncontrollable, can die or get shot, is even worse, isn't it? Do you think a little bit detective work can be done to find out her whereabouts, who is paying for her room, etc. what is she doing. By the way I had also hired a private investigator, but he was too slow, his slowness did not help me. My son got arrested before he could do anything for me. I paid him $500 to give me answers to 10 questions, with proofs. Maybe you can hire someone who is willing to do this for you. Find out everything and then take action. I am not sure what the law is about adults age 22 doing drugs, etc. Let her go to jail, maybe she can be put into a drug program, at which time, it will make more sense to talk to her. Right now, you are not able to do anything for her. My son, without drugs, is much better, but the disease is still very much there, as you can tell, by the amount of hurt I have. But with drugs, it is hell on earth, it is totally pure EVIL, nothing less, no conscience, no love, no empathy, a blank face and no accountability. Marie, I so much feel for you, you are in a really bad position, like I was in 2001.

Do you think parents like us can file something in family court, asking the court to somehow send boundaries on children, for eg. to be put into a drug program by force, etc. I think we can. I am planning on those grounds. I want to file something, saying that I think my son needs to be tested by a medical professional because of his lack of empathy towards me. He is breaking all my relations with my grandchildren, which is not fair to me.

Marie, Yes, I encountered the same problem regarding the HARE test. Your estimated score comes to 22? Yes, I guess they have to be really really bad, in order for the scores to be higher. I gave my son the highest score in the categories in which he is affected, which I can feel as of "today", not past, and still the score was 18. What your daughter is doing today, is how my son started in 2001. He was found to be on marijuana and ecstasy. But boy, does a mother know???? Yes, they do. Having never had any contact with drug abusers in my life, I was still able to tell while he was on drugs, that his problem was "not drug related". I find myself to be amazing, honestly, because everything that made an impact on me at that time, still holds true to today. They were odd and out of this world, and sure enough, today, when I am seeing Youtube videos of their behaviors, it is right on the dot.
Marie, the way you describe your daughter's behavior is EXACTLY like my son's when he was 21, each and every one of those traits. And you also mention that you are her main target. I am the main target in my son's life. In a twisted way, could they be asking for our help? Oh God!
Even though it hasn't helped at all, your daughter has at least reached therapists, I wasn't able to do that with my son. I talked to a closed room door with loud music for months, never saw his face, and was not able to take him to any therapist. I would make the appointments for him, but he never showed up. Anyway, the way your daughter manipulated the therapists, it didn't do any good. I think that is a bizzare diagnosis "intimate relationship conflicts". That cannot be the root of the problem, right? Maybe that is stemming out of the actual root of the problem. I honestly pray that my son can get a 100% accurate diagnosis. I am 58 years old, a young retiree getting a small government pension, just trying to buy some time of peace in my life, before I go back to some sort of part-time job. In this time when I was seeking some peace, after so many years of emotional torture from my son, I can see that my life is not meant to get any peace. I feel so broken.

Marie, I completely agree with what you are saying, about why should I care what others are saying. But in my case, like I said, my brothers and sisters and their children (his cousins) are all overseas. He has manipulated his wife against me, his mother in law, and has now joined his psychopath father who visits him regularly, with his new wife. Out of all of them, the only normal people are his wife, his step mom, and his mother in law, who is very sickly and may not be visiting regularly. There are two psychopaths in close proximity to this beautiful little boy. They leave the small 21 months old in a daycare, whereas I could have easily taken care of my little grandchild. His wife and mother in law would not talk to me, because he told them, that I am crazy. This is why I care that they know the truth about what is going on.
In front of his wife and her mother, I have had a few tantrums with him. You know he pushed my button to a point, where I react. He says really really mean things to me with so much conviction, to anything that comes out of my mouth in front of people, therefore, it is normal for any normal person to react. He twists it and makes me look so horrible. Since he has convinced them about my mental status, they don’t talk to me. But I need them to talk to me, so that I can save my grandchildren from a childhood raised by a psychopath. I am trying to see the future. His child might become a serial killer, if I don't do something now to avoid this situation. If he is emotionally torturing a little boy, can you imagine the outcome for a little kid?
My ex, who is a psychopath (big time), his brother tried to or molested my son, when he was going to his father’s house for child visitation. The uncle lived with the father. He told me at that time, and I called the child protective services. I was so frieked out that right after that I moved far away with my son so that child visitation would stop, and eventually it did stop. Child Protective Services went to the molester's home, but they were unable to arrest him at that time. I let it go. Later on when all these behaviors are happening to my son, I asked him but he refuses to admit that about his uncle’s moletation. He actually sides with that family, his father's family now. Maybe he gets along or feels getting support from another psychopath? Maybe he feels emotionally supported to be with his father, I am not sure. I think my son even socializes at the home of his molesting uncle, imagine that? However, I recently found a letter which my son wrote to his young cousin, in which he mentions that if the uncle tries something, he has learned Marshall arts, and will fight back. The uncle used to molest his own son, and my son. I am not sure how far he got. The letter which my son wrote at age 13 was typed, but not signed in his handwriting. On the next page of the letter, he draws a figure (he is a very good artist), of a man with a blank face. I will try to see if I can load that picture on my profile, later today. Anyway this is just a glimpse into his childhood. I am wondering if I can take that letter as evidence and go to court to get that child molester pay for what he did. Maybe this is all happening due to that childhood trauma. I called Child Protective Services, unfortunately, they don't keep records for that long. They have nothing. But this man knows that the child protective services went to his house, he would have to tell the truth in court. Also, his son might speak the truth about molestation. The happiest day in my life would be to see my ex's brother in jail for child molestation. However, my son would never testify against his uncle, because he hates me and loves his psycho. dad, right now in his life.
I feel like I am to blame for everything that has happened. I feel that why when I had the chance from age 15 - 18, why did I not use force to take him to a doctor. He was so cunning and manipulative that he ran away from all situations where I could do things like that. I wish I knew what I was dealing with.
I have a whole in my heart. I have read in so many places that going to court with a personality disorder person, is a disaster. They will lie and manipulate even more. I experienced that during my divorce with the psychopath. But I feel like I have to do this in order to bring this awareness to my daughter in law, so that her life is not ruined. It is very difficult for normal people to recognize these monsters. Not in the case of your daughter who is currently doing drugs, but some day when she is not doing drugs, then it is hard to identify them. They are the most dangerous ones, the ones who are extremely cunning and manipulative. I feel like doing something.
I might just have to get a part time job, and try to see if I can fight all this in court, to have both of these monsters see a psychiatrist, get diagnosis, and accordingly be kept away from the babies, or get supervised visitation. It will break my daughter in law's heart and she might think I am breaking her family, but I am saving her a lifetime of pain. She will never be able to see this and figure out all by herself, because I was in the same position.
Once the word reaches her ears, that my son may be a psycho, or have a personality disorder, I think her whole life will fall apart. One cannot be in a marriage with all these things flying around. Therefore, I have to be very careful what I am going to do. I wish that she would talk to me. But right now she is 8 months pregnant, not the time when I can talk to her about such things. So I have to suffer at least through the months of April and May, maybe take action in June or July when she is alone at home with baby. Maybe I will visit her alone and talk to her, ask her if she is truly happy with my son. She may not talk to me. Maybe she will call the police. My son has manipulated all this into her head. I am the most peaceful person ever. I have had careers of 15 years in one job, I raised him on my single salary. Why is his wife not looking at the truth? She knows how I talk to her, versus how he talks to her? I mean there is a world of difference.
What if they are truly getting along, and what if he is really past the bad behavior, what if he only has issues with me, because during his mania phase around 2001, I was the only one with him. What if all his issues are with me alone. And now he is normal and is leading a normal life. He keeps his jobs for long periods of time, supposedly is earning a high income, lives in the $800K home, which him and his wife bought together. Since I don’t know any other parts of his life, I assume that his target is only me, he avoids me, he talks bad about me, keeps me away from my grandchildren. If I am his only problem, then I am willing to live without him, I am very happy with it. It is totally okay for me to be far from him and have no relations with my grandkids. As long as he is not hurting anyone else. But like Agent said, if he is hurting me emotionally, he is hurting my daughter in law as well.
At least in 20 years, I have had a step in the right direction. I have at least found out that there is a disorder, which I never knew before. So I am very thankful for that. Next Step – Not sure what it is going to be.

Hello Roses:

I don't know about the state of CA, but I know in some states grandparents do have legal rights to see their grandchildren. It would probably be an expensive battle, but you've probably got some legal ground to stand on with that. I would see an attorney if I were you and at least have a consult about your concerns for the childrens' safety as well as your rights to have a relationship with your grandchildren.

As far as my situation, I doubt I can get family court to force her into any kind of program as she is of adult age and is under no obligation that I know of to answer to accusations of drug use. Even though I know it's true and have seen it for years, I'm not sure the courts would have any reason to believe it. According to my divorce papers, my ex and I are to provide support until she completes college and attains her degree, but given that she moved out of my custody of her own volition, that might make any parental rights/obligations that I had null and void. I know where she is staying (with the boyfriend and his roomate) and she has a couple of part time jobs that she works in between her class schedule.

The private investigator is a great idea. I have a hunch that she and her boyfriend may be dealing drugs on the side for some extra cash. She also told me some months back that her boyfriend was regularly stealing from the cash register at work. I would like to submit an anonymous report to the police in his town, but if he were to get caught and arrested, he would likely lose his job. And if that happens, he will not be able to help provide in their household which will then put my daughter in a worse spot financially.

Will write more later with regards to your second post.

Agent, thank you so much for addressing my issues, really appreciate you taking your time to explain.
You explained the 3 Clusters, wow! I am so confused. Maybe my son overlaps into all these clusters. He is not socially awkward though. He is very confident. He gave speeches at cousin's weddings in New Zealand and Australia. Everyone loved his presence in the front of the room, handsome guy with a tie and good looking, trying to talk about funny things. I, on the other hand, could smell his sickness and nothing was funny to me. I want to say my son is the Cluster B type with overlaps of A, and maybe a little bit C.

I agree with you regarding Cluster B never wanting to seek help. Aspergers - I will look that up, is that brain damage?

Avoidant Personality Disorder - wow, that is truly enlightening. I am wondering if my son has this. But would it only be towards one person? He supposedly is very social. Him and his wife are visiting friends and weddings. I wish that my son would find a psychiatrist who could diagnose him within 45 minutes. To me his problem is that obvious. Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder - this is even more shocking. They have so many categories of personality disorders. I will try watching the youtube videos you mention. I have seen so many youtube videos on this subject lately. I get really exhausted and sad when I watch them.

I am very disappointed to hear that brain scans are not used to diagnose personality disorders. I now lose all my hope. I have been seeing Dr. James Fallon, the College Professor who did thousands of brain scans for criminals and serial killers. He found out among his work, that his own brain matched with a psychopath. His whole family history from many generations, there were murderous and serial killers. Therefore, this disease is genetic, which is so true in my case. Anyway, I had written to Dr. Fallon recently asking for information on brain scans, where and how I can get those done, but found out he is in Africa. His office assistant at Irvine, wrote me back which was very nice. He will be back in June, at which time, I hope to contact him, however, if they don't use brain scans to diagnose, what is the point? I am wondering even if brain scan is not used to diagnose, at least it will give the family some indication regarding the level of his psychopathy. He would have to agree to the brain scan. If he manipulates which he will and says, I should get one too, boy I am absolutely agreeable to that. I will get my brain scanned so that it can be made clear. In fact some years back when I was having some problems, I did get a brain scan. Do you think any brain scan could show psychopathy? I could find mine from the hospital and take a look. I will try to compare mine with what Dr. Fallon has posted on youtube videos. I have got some work to do in this respect.

Again, I am shocked at how many different personality disorders there can be. You mention dissociative identity disorder, multiple personality disorder. It is very important, as I can see, that a proper diagnosis be made.

I have suffered a liftime with this boy. Even if I try, I cannot just walk away at this point. I cannot go to my grave knowing that I left a monster alive out there to hurt my grandchildren. This family and many other families, need to get informed about such a disorder. My life is already ruined. My spirituality has saved me to have some sort of normalcy. I feel that I am very close to getting spiritually enlightened. In fact when i started medicating lately, that's how these answers have begun to come my way. I knew of the word "psychopathy" after a deep meditation session. The wise man say that all the answers are within us, we just have to reach there. I now believe them.
I am meditating more than ever now. Before I go to close, I get in touch with my self, and sometimes I get dreams which leads me somewhere. I keep a note pad next to me, as soon as I dream, i write down what it is. This has been a very lonely and scary journey for me, I even want to write a book. Another disappointment there - found out I cannot write it as my own true story, will get sued by them for liebel .... how do I write a non-fiction in a creative way.
Dr. Sandra L Brown has a website for victims. In there, she offers a class to victims to tell their story and get it published. Costs $750. I would love to attend some day when this phase of my life is more under control.

Thanks again. Happy Easter to both you and Marie. God Bless.

Here are links for a couple videos explaining the different personality disorders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LZfRGxwVNQ&list=PLOQcXCAJXvUC313Hjm7Xtzg-l6HW0uglK&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xv593jgyJ4&list=PLOQcXCAJXvUC313Hjm7Xtzg-l6HW0uglK&index=1

It is VERY difficult to diagnose a personality disorder. I've spent 10 years extensively studying psychology, particular personality disorders, and I still have trouble differentiating them. I was able to figure out the recent guy's disorders because of my research and also because I was able to compare him to examples of known psychopaths I had dealt with before. It is very difficult if you have no other examples to compare and contrast with.

The two psychopaths I've dealt with score in the high 30s on Hare's checklist. They are legit psychopaths and there's no confusion at all with them. They use alias names to con people. They create fraudulent identities with extensive backgrounds and stories, even fraudulent documentation and props to aid in this. They are extremely charming. They lie about everything but keep track of all their lies. The 2nd psychopath I was victimized by even used a fake British accent. But only some people knew him with the accent, others did not. He had different identities for different victims. And he kept it all straight. He told me extravagant lies about how he was a war veteran and received a purple heart and various other medals, which he had framed in his house (replicas). He had letters from the president framed on his walls, thanking him for his service (fraudulent). He was working at a job under false certifications. He had lost his nursing license because he was caught stealing prescription pads and forging doctor's names on them, to fuel his drug addiction. He pretended to be a doctor in one scam for another victim, even showing up at her house all the time with a stethoscope around his neck. All part of his con. She married him based on the fake person she thought he was. Then found out the truth later. He would go to check cashing companies and get loans for a few hundred bucks, then carry this money around in a money clip, making sure to pull it out whenever possible, to make sure you saw it. All to aid in the idea that he was rich. He always wore dress clothes, cufflinks, etc to see me. Yet drove a piece of shit car. Always had excuses for why he wasn't driving his BMW (which of course he didn't own). I actually found out that he had been sued by a car dealership. I called them and they told me he did actually purchase a BMW from them but never made a single payment so it was repo'd the next month. He owed them over $4000 for that. Plus all the check cashing companies had sued him for the unpaid loans. He had been sued a dozen times in the previous 2 years or so. Had lost countless jobs. He was convicted of 6 or 7 felonies in regards to the drug/forgery stuff. He kept all of this hidden. I found it out with lots of digging and exposed the hell out of him. He is an extremely evil person who gets off on conning women into believing his a millionaire or doctor or whatever. He uses very big, fancy words when he talks, plus the British accent, to make himself seem very intelligent and successful. A lot of fancy medical terms and such. So that's a textbook psychopath. He knew he was a psychopath. His previous victim had told him he was a psychopath when she found out the truth, after she was married to him and he conned her out of like 50k.

And I was the victim of another who turned out to be a registered sex offender, had served time in prison, was in and out of jail his entire life (dead now). He stalked me for over 5 years after I dated him for just a few months. He was convicted of stalking me and still didn't stop. Was obsessed with me for years, until he died, even though I only dated him a few months. He committed a lot of various crimes. Pathological liar, also lied about being a war vet (common psychopath lie). Was very violent. Would fly into violent rages at the drop of a hat. Thought he was extremely intelligent but wasn't. Wanted to argue about anything. Got very abusive. Then would turn the charm back on when his victim was leaving. Would feel sorry for himself and pretend cry to play the victim. Also a con artist, had been sued many times, was on judge judy for a fraudulent business he had used to con someone. She saw through his BS and he lost the case within seconds. Then he torched the fake business and was convicted of arson, insurance fraud, and criminal damaging. Went back to jail. Died soon after.

These guys lead a life of extreme lies, cons, aliases, fraud, are in and out of jail, always in trouble, but never think they'll be caught. They usually can't maintain relationships, have a lot of short term relationships, multiple divorces, etc. Very dysfunctional, very controlling, very manipulative. Once you've known one, you can see the pattern right away in the next one. They all behave so similarly it's like they've read the same book on how to be a psychopath. Same lies even. Same pickup lines. Same games.

Agent, Just what I did not want to believe, but after watching both the videos under "Personality Disorders" which you posted, it is clear to me that my son falls under Cluster B, although not to the extremes which your above post mentions. At first when he moved from childhood to adolescence, he bleaches his hair, started a very rough and fast lifestyle, always groomed with the best clothes which he could not afford, and trying to impress others. His thing was that he wanted to impress by being what he was not, trying to pretend to be the person who everybody will need, such as a drug dealer (in leadership role). I need a hug right now!!! Crying! Oh my God, I want to die. Why would God not feel sorry for a sweet and kind mother like me. I want a hug so bad, please tell me what to do. I didn't know that God's world was so bad.

For instance, today is Easter. So my sister's daughter and my son, both have babies the same age. So the two couples, my son, his wife and baby, and my sister's daugther, her husband and baby, organized an egg hunt. The pictures on FB look like they all had fun. I mean this man is able to hide amongst so many people, without them recognizing him, only because he does not live with them??? But his wife should know, right? I mean I know what I experienced, I have records of documents. Sometimes, I feel like I am going nuts, but I know the day when I saw no conscience in him, I know that he still is like that, because of the way he treats me when we are alone. When his wife is behind him in the same room, he speaks a little nicer to me.

Anyway, I was so desperate for answers. I tried everything out there to help me understand what was wrong. Since it all looked so supernatural to me, I went to an Indian Guru who was visiting the Bay Area, I think around 1998 or 1999, when he was sort of starting off with the madness. She has some spiritual powers. It is very rare that she would make a space for someone to sit next to her, but she did for me and my son. She kept on looking at my son, and the man next to her had to interpret her words to me. She sensed something was very wrong as I could see it on her face. She said that there is a lapse of memory, but he will get better.

I know that the lapse of memory is real, because when I went to pick him up from the airport, before the mania started, I remember him not recognizing me at the airport. I was walking towards him, and he saw me, but there was no recognition from him, which alarmed me for a moment. I was shocked. That moment was saved in my mind.

Sometimes I think that maybe during those mania days when whatever attacked his brain (I am thinking an unholy spirit, or even chemical imbalance), he forgot about who I am. Then later, if he became better with time as the holy lady predicted, then maybe he is doing okay, but because of the mania and forgotten memory about me, maybe he treats me the way he does.

Otherwise, how come no one else has come forward. Although there is no one in our lives, who is a mutual person who visits both of us. Due to my son's abuses, I have become a loner and pretty much stay alone, with my spirituality, talk to co-workers on the phone, meet them for lunches or dinners, and hardly ever go out with mutual family (mutual with my son).

Even if I went to court, demanding that he see a psychiatrist, and that I be allowed to see my grandson, diagnosing personality disorder is so controversial, I can see his lawyer dismissing everything or fighting it big time.

Agent, whatever you describe above, I see that with my son in those days, but at a lower level. For example, in 2013, which is pretty recent, my sweet daughter in law "forced" my son to take his mother to lunch on mother's day. I am sure he hated it, but he listens to her, at least during the first year of their marriage, I am not sure now. They did not have a baby those days. They came over, and they gave me a very nice camera. It was a new camera, my daughter in law knows that I love photography. I thanked them so much, put the flowers in water, and took some pictures. Then they took me to a nice restaurant for which my son paid. He tips the waiter big money, I mean even if he cannot afford it. He told me that because he had been a waiter himself, he knows the feeling of getting big tips, so he always tips them big. I think it is a big showoff. Anyway, I came home, searched for my camera everywhere. I know for certain that I did not lose the camera there, it was with me, either in my purse or on the dining table at home, before i left. I am certain I did not take the camera with me to the restaurant. Anyway, the camera disappeared. I knew in my heart that he took it and hid it in the back of his car. He is cunning and manipulative like that, very secretive. He can do a huge crime, but never admit to it. He has absolutely no conscience. That's what I see in him and I am his mother.

Agent, I forgot to add that I am so glad that the sex offender who was obsessed with you died, Thank God. I hope they all die. You surely have had your share of these psychos. Dr. Sandra Brown said that when they were doing research of personality disorders, they decided to see what kind of women date these psychos. They were alarmed to find that the women who date these men, or mothers like me, are unbelievable, the highest ranking in "love", "trust", "integrity", "forgiving", "trusting" - she said that the doctors did not expect the level to be as high as they were. We are probably the best of humans that there are on earth. If only we could walk away, but we don't.
I am going to get a criminal record from the computer, the ones they sell on my son, to start off with. I will go ahead and pay the money and try to get one. I also want to get any public records from San Diego where he lived right after the mania phase. I wonder how I will get the public records from there.
Marie - I am wondering what your ex was like. In my case I am certain this is genetic, because I experienced it twice, once with my ex and his son. Where do you think it is coming from in your daughter's life. It must be your ex. Was he awful during your divorce? Anything something to think about. I remember that my ex, cried a little when on the last day, my son and I moved out of the house, in our truck. In fact I have a picture of him crying. That means he had emotions???? God, this is so complicated to me. but just months before, he was so uncaring, so cruel, so unbelievably cruel, that he was not even an animal, he was devil himself. This is so very complicated.

Roses, from everything you describe, it's probably best that your son does not communicate with you. If you know what he is, he probably wants to distance himself from you. His wife probably has some idea but may be brainwashed. I also live next to a psychopath how has a wife and 3 kids and they NEVER, I mean NEVER, leave the house. The wife doesn't drive, doesn't work, doesn't have friends. The kids are all school aged but don't go to school, don't go out and play in the neighborhood, have no friends, etc. I've lived here for 8 years and it's been like this the entire time. The guy of course saw the same qualities in me that the other psychopaths saw and targeted me right away. There have been constant crimes against me and my property from him. And it makes you wonder why would this woman stay with a man who isolates and controls her so severely? You know those kids will be screwed up for life. But it's probably because she's extremely brainwashed. Or she's in fear for her life if she left him. But he's demonstrated exactly what psychopaths and abusers do to their victims, isolate them. Make sure they have no outside support system, no job, no ability to care for themselves. Then they can never leave.

However, most of them can't maintain relationships forever. They usually are able to have ONE long term relationship, which eventually fails, and then their lives spiral out of control. I've seen it again and again.

There is no legal way you can force him to get a psych eval. That's only done when criminals are in court for things like murder, where they need to evaluate if an insanity defense would work (a psychopath is not legally insane since they do recognize the difference between right and wrong). Or they do psych evals for child custody cases as well. If there is a legitimate cause for concern that someone will kill themselves or someone else (threats being made), there is a legal way to get someone committed to a psych hospital for 3 days and an eval, but that's extremely rare.

I don't know anything about grandparent's rights so I can't comment on that. Is that your main concern? Are you trying to get custody of his kids? These guys are usually very good in custody battles. I actually know of two psychopaths who fought for custody, just to have that final control over their ex, and both won. They of course had no desire to raise children, and no ability to. But they were charming enough to win in court. And this is very common. The 1st one that stalked me, like I said was a registered sex offender...for a sex crime against a child. They gave him custody of one of his kids, rather than the mother. A registered sex offender/pedophile! That's how good these guys are in court. Just want you to be aware of what you'd be getting involved with.

Have you tried making friends with his wife? Maybe that'd be your best bet. Just kind of leave him out of the loop entirely and make friends with her and gain access to grandchildren through that method? He might try to block it but that's probably what I'd try first.