Jadenot. Yes, I ask many questions. And if I had answers to give I would, just as everyone else here tries to do. Even where there are answers, they differ in their effectiveness depending upon the situation. Just as penicillin will cure some people and harm others. I'm not sure I understand your question but I do not believe that reconciliation is achieved by loving your child and "doing all the right things," even if that were possible to do. IMHO, reconciliation is achieved when both parties feel that the relationship they have with each other is satisfactory to their emotional needs. That may not be the best answer but it is the only one I can give you off the top of my head.

Yes, I have seen many people write that they either don't love their children any more or don't know if they do. I have also seen people say they do, but wish they didn't. If you are interested, we can put out a post and follow the responses to that effect. I think it is an interesting question and, as I have said, is important to understand whether or not the estrangement ends. As to whether these responses are colored by feelings of hurt or anger, I think there is no doubt. But I do think some people truly feel they have no love left for their estranged adult children. I do not have scientific evidence obviously. I am just going by responses I have read.

I also recognize that merely asking the question is hurtful to people so I try to tell people that they may not want to read my posts. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone or create more confusion or misinformation. So all I can do is plod along trying to express my feelings, share my stories, and listen to people's responses. I feel I have learned much along the way and I hope I have contributed something to the dialogue. My very best wishes to you jadenot --EJ

You state:
" I also recognize that merely asking the question is hurtful to people so I try to tell people that they may not want to read my post ,,"

If you recognize that your questions are hurtful to people, then why do you persist? Inherent in the title of this thread, is a presumption and I do believe a judgment. You say if this is going to hurt, then don't read my post .. it's kind of like shutting the barn door after the horse got out ... or however that saying goes.

I was not asking you a question when I said: do you think that loving your child and doing everything you can will achieve reconciliation? I was making a statement that is does not. Even, the good Dr. Coleman, will tell you that.

No, I am not interested in putting out a post asking if people love their children or not; to do so would just cause more pain.

I am finished with this discourse.

In deference to those who feel that asking this question is too painful or hurtful for some, I will request that PapaBear take down this post. I believe that embracing the love for estranged adult children is helpful and healthy, but in deference to those who have strong feelings to the contrary, I will request that it be taken down. very best --EJ

First....ALL KNOWLEDGE/OPINIONS ARE GOOD TO LEARN/KNOW...even if you learn that that particular path is not for you...or if someone else learns that their particular path does not work for others.

Second...why should the post be taken down???? Just because others are not in agreement with Epics particular take on the subject does not mean that others are not learning something valuable like looking at themselves and being honest with just exactly how we or I feel on the matter and stating so with out eggshell walking...that is the power of open forums

Third...i am very very happy that Epic has been able to reconnect with his daughters and is happy with the circumstances as they are...if that works for him and his daughters ...GREAT !!!

Fourth...I belive that the disagreements and difference of serious opinions on this matter stem from a very simple explanation...it is my understanding from knowing Epic and his story prior to this discussion that he was the victim of PARENTAL ALIENATION by his ex wife while the girls were young/impressionable and totally under the control of the ex wife...he was simply "the provider" of money and things etc...not included in a healthy manner in their lives...they learned from the "alienating parent" how to treat their father. In that kind of a case...I do think it is imperative to show the children when they become adults just how much you love them and always have and how much you forgive them for ALOT of things as they were being controlled/manipulated/alienated for no good reason. I would do the exactly same thing with my grandson as he is innocent in this matter of estrangement and is in fact being "alienated" from his grandparents by his own mother (or fill in ex wife)..so I totally understand the eternal love/forgiveness part for those who were alienated from us by other controlling people thru no fault of their own...and I will if ever given the chance myself...do a bit of egg shell walking with my grandson while I try to repair years of damage caused by his mother my ED and have hope it will work someday.

However that all being said...I think that the vast majority of us did not have estrangement happen thru "alienation"...we had grown adult children that we had nutured and loved for years with no apparent problems or issues...spent many many good times with...simply walk away from us either thru silence for years or angry abusive words etc taking grandchildren and dreams of a happy retired funfilled life away.

It is hard if not impossible to imagine these two different situations as even being the same estrangement scenarios...both types of estrangement hurt...both cause us extreme sorrow and years of questioning why...but in alienation the answer is clear ...because someone else powerful and in control dictated... not the girls of Epic and not my grandson either...so we can forgive they did nothing wrong...and we can try to work on the new relationship and we can walk on eggshells cause they are
innocent.

However in the case of most of our estranged adult children.....the adult children did the estranging not an ex ...not a controlling parent...the adult children who did this did it without the benefit of a parent controlling them...they did it because as adults THEY COULD...we are worthless now in their eyes and under the bus we go or out with the garbage....none of us can feel the same about our situation as portrayed as Epic does his caused by parental alienation...it is like comparing apples to oranges...it does not work.

I hope Epic that you read this and understand that most of us are coming from an entirely different situation and there fore we will react differently and so will you.

We all share with Epic the grief...the sorrow of not having our kids/grandkids and he shares that with us...but the solutions are totally different for the two different situations...and are very very hard to share...Epic has an answer "parental alienation"............We still dont know why and probably never will

AllK

I think you summed it up very well, AllK.

EJ: It certainly puts a different 'spin' on things and given those circumstances I too might have been tempted to 'walk on eggshells'. The great thing is it has worked for you and that can only be a good thing. As Alk says "First....ALL KNOWLEDGE/OPINIONS ARE GOOD TO LEARN/KNOW...even if you learn that that particular path is not for you...or if someone else learns that their particular path does not work for others." I wholeheartedly agree with her.

This is from my reply #11. I said the same thing in reply #15 and elsewhere. Again, people hear what they want to hear:

Should we protect ourselves from future abuse? Of course. Are many of these adult children wrong, even horribly wrong for their conduct? Of course. But we all acknowledge that each situation is different. One size does not fit all. Love and forgiveness will not conquer all estrangements - but it will conquer some, and I am here to attest to it.

Nothing is wrong with loving them.

Sometimes loving is holding someone close.

And sometimes loving is walking away knowing that it's in no one's best interests for dysfunction to go on.

We're not everyone's answer to everything.....sometimes walking away gives someone else the chance to be the answer.

Very succinctly put, patti22. I would only add that it is also ok not to love. No one says you should love, but my personal view is that if you do, it is best to be in touch with your true feelings and take it from there. As others have also pointed out, much depends upon the stage of grieving that you are in. We have all gone through the anger and bitterness stage and the problem with that is it sometimes blocks us from being in touch with our true feelings. A big part of therapy is getting in touch with our true feelings and learning to think about those feelings in helpful and productive ways.

Totally agreed epic.

I guess I could have added that "walking away" sometimes means not loving.

It's a big world. There's always someone else to love. Of course those are a few small words and it's 1000% more complicated than that.

Yes, Patti22, a few small words, and probably the most powerful force on earth. If we could only leverage that force in a productive way with our adult children . . .