It goes without saying then, that where there is no serious or prolonged abuse, you love your children. Loving one's children can take many forms for different people. For me, it most certainly takes the form of patience, contrition, forgiveness, flexibility, sacrificing my own wants and needs for the sake of providing for their wants and needs, etc. Does that mean I will eat bread and water so they can eat steak every night? Of course not. Does that mean we should raise spoiled brats lacking in discipline and home-training? Of course not. It is these extreme examples that cause us to go astray. It is not one extreme or the other. It is a matter of living one's life by certain principles and values. We love our children. It's that simple. We love them. We want what's best for them. We should teach them and train them about the golden rule, and appreciating their parents, family, and other people, work ethic, honesty, loyalty, and the value of education. It is not helpful to denigrate the concept of raising our children in a loving home and in a loving environment by using extreme examples of parents who want to raise children who have no sense of decency or respect for others. And no one has said that we should apologize for things we didn't do. But we should be open to apologizing for the part that we may have played in the dysfunction that may have existed. If there is no dysfunction, then there is nothing to apologize for. If there is dysfunction or estrangement in a household, I have yet to meet the parent that played no part in it's development.

The other thing is that we have to get away from the fault/blame, blame/fault trap. Latellyblue does a great job of explaining this. It doesn't matter whose fault it was!!! If someone in the family ignores everyone's advice and stays out in the cold without a coat and then comes back in and gives everyone in the family pneumonia, is it their fault? Maybe, but so what. Everyone should go to the doctor, get better, and heal as a family, instead of blaming the kid who went out without a coat, who acted out of spite because the sister was fussing at him about not wearing the coat; and then the sister blames the mother for always making her wear a coat but not enforcing the rule for her brothers; and then the mother blames the father for raising the sister as a "daddy's girl"; and then the father blames the older brother for not looking out for his younger brother, etc., etc. With families it is always a vicious circle where blame is fungible - it is a zero sum game. What are you going to do, sue your mother? Have you ever seen what Judge Judy does to those nit-wit kids who come on her program suing their mother? Of course we make exceptions for our children. They are right about that - we are supposed to. We are just supposed to have the wisdom to know when and where we should do it.

Each to his own but my EKs are no longer children but are in fact, grown adults who have chosen to invent lies, decieve their parents and tear our beloved grandchildren from us. Personally I have run out of patience and have also realised that I actually don't like these people who I gave birth to and brought up with loving, caring , respectful values which they chose to ignore.
They broke my heart, it ached for years and now, well, what do I feel for them? nothing!
It would have to be a miracle of Titanic proportions for me to ever trust them again or give them back a place in my heart or home.
In answer to"What's wrong with loving them?" The answer for me is that it would make me weak and vulnerable, I have to protect ME.

Hi EJ,

I would like to make a couple of comments on your post.

1. In most of our cases, we are dealing with adults, not children. We did our best, and our job is done.

2. There is no excuse for bad behavior from anyone, regardless of age. Most of us here are good, moral folks who know bad behavior when they see it, and won't tolerate it anymore.

3. Justice is an attribute of Love. I think you may be confusing Love with Sentimentality. Sometimes love is tough. This is for our protection from the perps, and for their own good so their bad behavior is stopped. This "turn the other cheek" nonsense only empowers the evil.

4. After experiencing estrangement for many years from four horrible ingrates, I take NO responsibility for any of this. They returned evil for good, and if I may be permitted to use a biblical phrase, may "evil never leave their house." We have three loyal adult offspring who were raised in the same house, and turned out completely different. The only explanation is the "Incipiency of the Will". A person has the power to make a choice for good or evil, regardless of his environment. We need to stop giving these types all of these rat-holes to run into for cover.

PPB

Epic... I think most of us here are not so much blaming our EOs but "explaining" our EOs. The extreme level of prolonged (for me it was 19 years) abuse, disrespect and hatred we received from our EOs was completely unwarranted as we DID make every effort to teach them as you put it..."about the golden rule, and appreciating their parents, family, and other people, work ethic, honesty, loyalty, and the value of education."

In no way did anyone here abuse or neglect their children, but instead, raised their children to the best of their ability and with their best intentions. Perfect? No. Of course not. But the LEVEL of hatred, disrespect, ungratefulness, and scorn we received was in no way warranted. Most of the people here were the recipients of the abuse ... but without a "why" to explain it. The fact that there is no plausible explanation for their behavior is what causes us the extreme emotional pain that comes with their estrangement.

I personally cannot explain it other than to say that they are ill on some level and therefore cannot help themselves. Mentally healthy individuals simply do not act this way when their parents are loving and caring people. We do not so much "blame" them as we struggle for a way to "explain" them.... or explain our pain from their behavior. Trust me, we have all dissected our own lives and parenting methods with a microscope and cannot come up with a plausible reason for the level of hatred they spew at us.

We have been exposed to serious and prolonged abuse... yes, abuse.. from our ADULT children. Many of our EOs walked away from us only when we drew a line in the sand and said "NO MORE". They are our children, yes, but they were hateful adults who became strangers that we don't even know any longer, nor do we want to. Still love them?? We don't know them.... and what we do know we would not take from a stranger or a family member.

I agree that in all relationships there is conflict and estrangement is not something to act upon lightly. I also agree that the blame game is pointless. This whole estrangement thing can become a very slippery slope and it takes a huge amount of time, emotion and strength to survive it.

It's no one's fault. It just is what it is.... without plausible explanation.

What's wrong with loving them?

Nothing....unless you want to leave the Estrangement Amusement Park. When you are done with the Merry-Go-Rounds and Roller Coasters of emotions, pains and unanswerable WHY! you are left with some bare bones truth. The lifetime of love and sacrifice we gave for our children will forever go unappreciated and unreciprocated. The kids we loved are no more, the adults that replaced them are not anyone we would or could respect or enjoy having in our lives, and the most tragic of all, is that these same unlikeable people are parenting our grandchildren now, so chances are we won't like them as adults either.

Is the truth Harsh? Only someone who has made it to the point, survived and still insist on honesty over sentimentality will know just how HARSH it is. We paid the prices demanded, and walk out of the Park with our minds and hearts and VALUES INTACT. We look in the mirror and know who and what looks back at us. We can admit to having lost the NEED to love the most dangerous and destructive people in our lives.

We also don't need to hate them. But we do keep them at a distance that protects us from them............ and from others who think they know what we should be doing and feeling. We do what we do to survive, thrive and lead healthy lives and better futures. Do Gooders with razor sharp opinions and simple turn the other cheek solutions need not apply..... we don't need anyone to tell us what is right or wrong, Christian or NORMAL. I can guarantee that we have looked at this from every concievable and a few inconcievable angles and IT IS WHAT IT IS is the only explanation for what we have been through and go through.

So....the short answer to "Whats wrong with loving them?" is IT'S FUTILE TO LOVE A DELUSION.

My EO drove me to the point of hating and blaming myself and ended up attempting to kill myself. While the paramedics wheeled me out of the house to the funny farm....she stood there laughing at me. After years of abuse on her part towards me and the rest of the family......the only thing I got in return was a trip to a rubber room.
Now that I have regained my sanity.....I refuse to go down that road again. She and my ES have killed any love there was for them....their choice....not mine. I have apologized for any part of unintentional hurt and I even went for help.....and in return they have killed me a thousand million times over.
I did my best, but I will NEVER go down that road again....game over and I have nothing to be ashamed of or sorry for!!!

Dear MsB.....I am so relieved that you are still here with us, and that you have buillt a new and rewarding life in the aftermath of such horrors and heartbreaks. I am also glad there was a rubber room for you to land safely in until you found a better way to continue forward. Many Hugs Dear Sis D.

Being totally honest I wish for that rubber room some days, the really bad days.....and Yes, I still have them. There are still too many reminders, too many stumbling blocks. And there is still the incessant screaming in my own head. I accept that as the way things are now.

Do I wish my wayward and cruel sons were back in my life.....NO, and NO, and again NO. The trust and any bond is dead and won't ever be resurrected. Still, I mourn and shake my fist at the universe for being unfair. And I hope for the good days. They are more plentiful now then they were in the beginning, but I am stronger now too.

I thank everyone for their heartfelt, sincere, and insightful posts. This is a catharsis for us all.

It doesn't matter how many times I say it, people will hear what they hear - especially when it comes to an emotionally-charged topic like estrangement. But I will respectfully repeat that NO PERSON SHOULD BE MADE TO SUFFER SERIOUS OR PROLONGED ABUSE.

Of the many examples given, clearly those cases fall in the category of serious or prolonged abuse. But I am not here to define what that is. The truth is that the definition of serious or prolonged abuse will differ dramatically from one person to another with respect to what leads people to decide to estrange from their loved ones. Far be it from me or anyone to sit in judgment on those who have been compelled to make those decisions.

I suffered prolonged abuse by my daughters for ten years. And I don't mind being called a goody two shoes or turn-the-other-cheek liberal or all the other stuff. When it comes to my adult children I will always love them, no matter what. That does not make me better or holier-than-thou or anything else. I just have to be me just like you have to be you.

It so happens that 2 of my 3 daughters have come back to me and I'm still working on the third. I don't have to waste my time on this board. None of us do. We come here to share, and if possible, to share a meaningful experience that we hope will help others. I am here to say that love has worked for me, even in the face of prolonged abuse. Again, I do not advocate acceptance of abuse by anyone, at any time, or for any reason. I just believe that it is very difficult for children to deny their parents'abiding love, no matter how selfish they are,and no matter how old they get. Are their exceptions? Of course, but there are also many estrangements that can be salvaged by love and forgiveness. I am here to give voice to that possibility and I refuse to be shouted down, goody two shoes though I may be. My best to you, friends-EJ

Epic: Do I love my ED?.....yes ...and I always will. Do I like her? I detest the way she, as an adult, is behaving so I guess the answer is no...certainly the person I knew and liked no longer exists. We are all human and none of us perfect but I know beyond any doubt that we did our best in raising her. I am not Mother Theresa ( I am sure even she had her 'moments' during her long life) and neither am I a sacrificial lamb.

My ED chooses to hate me...that is her prerogative ....I can chose to hate her back or love her...that is my prerogative and I chose to love her ......from a distance. I love the Buddha quote..."If your compassion does not include yourself... it is incomplete". For me self compassion is:
Not judging yourself or allowing others to judge you, not blaming yourself, getting to know and accepting yourself, forgiving yourself and loving yourself, respecting yourself and protecting yourself ....important, because if we don't have compassion for ourselves we will rarely have it for anyone else.

As regards dysfunction I doubt that there is a family out there where it doesn't exist to a greater or lesser degree...we all did our best in raising our children and if that wasn't good enough...then there is little we can do. As adults we are all responsible for our actions and should know that all actions have consequences....EO are not young children but mature adults, although, judging by what I have read and seen over the years, I use the term 'mature' loosely'. Suffice to say they are old enough to know better.....how my ED choses to deal with this estrangement is and always has been her affair. To reach out to someone and be rejected time and time again is not an easy thing to do and sometimes enough is enough. I certainly have no wish to add further hurt to the pain I already feel.

Thought provoking post...thank you for posting

Salvaged by love and forgiveness? The requisite for forgiveness is repentance, true remorse and responsibility.
Then there is the possibility of reconciliation. The love has to be reciprocal or you are merely a slave to the relationship. And why does the offended party in these estrangements have to go after the abuser? The father of the prodigal in the bible didn't go chasing after him. We road the roller coaster ride of contacting and being contacted, only to be rejected again repeatedly in either case. False hope is a terrible and unrelenting task master. It is best to recognize them for what they are and walk away. Anyone willing to say, do and cause the things the EOs have does not belong in our lives. Mama Bear

In my view I have said nothing contrary to what you all are saying. Only my emphasis is different. Should we protect ourselves from future abuse? Of course. Are many of these adult children wrong, even horribly wrong for their conduct? Of course. But we all acknowledge that each situation is different. One size does not fit all. Love and forgiveness will not conquer all estrangements - but it will conquer some, and I am here to attest to it. Only just recently, my middle daughter acknowledged to me that she had believed the lies my ex-wife told her about me for years. If I had kept arguing and beating my head against a wall, I would not be where I am today with her. Love made me say, ok, ok, let's just do stuff together like we used to, and talk. It wasn't important for me to have my day in court with my daughter. The blessing that I received was that she came to it all on her own. Now she constantly tries to apologize to me and to berate her mother, but I will have none of it. I am not saying that my views will work for anyone else. I agree PPB, that false hope can be very damaging. I can only tell my story in the event that somewhere, somehow, it offers a glimmer of hope, not a false hope, in someone's situation. I truly feel for everyone here. I know the horror, trust me. I also hope for myself and my remaining daughter. Peace and love --EJ

Mama Bear brought up an interesting aspect of estrangement which is portrayed by the prodigal's father. The father just carried on with his life, probably going through all the emotions we have been through but he didn't go pleading, he just carried on as his son went from bad to worse and eventually ended up in the pig pen where he came to his senses and realised life would be better with dear old Dad. I have always felt sorry for the older brother who gets cast as " having a bad attitude" but we won't go there.
As for the matter of loving your EO back into the fold, I loved them with all my heartfor many years and obviously it didn't work as they lied, stole and continue to do so.
It truly is too late now for my kids, things have gone too far to be fixable.

Well for sure I LOVED...I FORGAVE...I UNDERSTOOD...I HELPED...I LET HER LIVE HER OWN FAMILY LIFE...I SUPPORTED HER MENTALLY EMOTIONALLY AND FINACIALLY (sometimes a lot and sometimes a little depending on the need or want)...thru her entire life up to HER choosing to estrange me and DH and go silent...no known address...no known phone numbers...no known email address...no known place of work etc., and NO EXPLANATION of why or how come or how long.

I would have agreed Epic ... a few years ago that love...forgiveness...and communication could would and should solve almost any problem in a relationship...however obviously she does not.

I would have apologized if I did or even knew of something I should apologize for...I could have forgiven her mistake...my mistake but I am not aware of any that would cause HER to estrange herself from us.

My daughter (and many others) feels no love...no forgiveness...no desire for a relationship with her mother or she would not have done what she did and continues to do without some kind of tenative reaching out.

There was no prior abuse...no long standing disagreements...no heat of the moment passion of anger with ugly words said.

She was an only child dearly beloved and supported by 2 parents (DH is stepparent for 34 of her 36 year life)...no ex was in the picture so there was no parental alientation.

College...cars...masters degree...wedding...2 grandchildren............

If all of that love and support was not enough for 36 years to keep her from alienating herself from us....then what kind of love and/or attention would be enough to acheive a reconciliation with her??

Oh and the best part just to prove how really obtuse these kids are...she walked away from a VERY VERY substantial estate /inheritance and it is well into millions...she could not even stick around civilly for the "prize" cause all parents die sooner or later.

The fact is she does not like or love us for some unkn reason and she does not care...maybe she never did !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now Epic if you think I am wrong...I will hire a private detective and get her address/phome numbers and you can go talk to her...I will either be wrong or you will...Any takers???

Allk

Epic.....I guess I should have plainly stated this with my first response.....

YOU, I , and everyone else here.....WE are all more than entitled to our own opinions and emotional reaction to what is posted here.....and for the most part WE agree to disagree in a respectable and honorable way. So I hope you understand that a disagreement with Your Opinion is not personal in any way..... we shared our scars here too and why we feel differently. And in a totally honest moment, I will day I once felt as you do,....like forgiving and loving them was the moral high ground and my only path. Time and subsequent destructive behavior have proven that path to be wrong FOR ME. More power to you if it is working for you. Basically....whatever floats your lifeboat is what each of us needs to do!

Armymom, I get it. I really do. There is no one size fits all. God only knows what you have been through and I have no doubt that you had no choice in how things have turned out with your child/children. I still wish you and yours, much peace and love because that is the goal, even if we have to take separate paths to get there. Allk, I have been proven wrong many times and it doesn't keep me from expressing what I truly believe. In this case, I have not said that love and forgiveness will bring your child back to you, so I cannot be proven wrong. I wish that for you, if that is what you want, but I do not begin to know what your situation is. I take your words at face value and it brings back very unpleasant memories of what I went through with my girls for years. As I said, some situations are not salvageable. But some are - and the path of salvation for me was through love and forgiveness. By the way, that approach works for other situations too, even if it may not work for intransigent, intractable, EC's. I don't spend my time beating my head against a wall trying to change my last hold-out of a daughter. I spend my life being positive and focusing on those who reciprocate love for me. Sometimes they say or do disrespectful things too, but I brush that off as a part of life. Again, it is the serious or prolonged abuse standard that I use to determine whether I should distance myself from certain loved ones. I really, really hope the best for all my friends here in their close, personal relationships. We deserve it. Very best -- EJ