The Den Community Group
Pull up a chair and put your feet up. Lie down if necessary! :)
kbfree
OK, so it is NOT directly about one of my kids only remotely. The back story is about my kid, the venting is not.
Back story - short version: I have decided to move forward with newly reunited son. I have also decided to let him gift/invest to me money for a down payment on a house which in return he is named in my will to get the house or if I sell it he gets his initial investment plus split the net profits. So, a win/win and no entanglements along the way. He has approached me with this several times in the past but has always had a controlling, condescending attitude with terms I could not accept. This time is different and we have agreed on terms and agreed I would get the attorney to advise us and write up the agreement. If he actually puts his money where his mouth remains to be seen but I am moving forward and will find out. I decided it would be worth the few hundred to get the agreement written up and see what happens with son.
My vent is with the attorney. I am soooo mad and sad right now. I hired him for a 1 hour consultation regarding the legalities on this and to write up the agreement. Everything seemed clear. But he required a huge retainer fee for that. I questioned that but he said what was not used would be returned to me. But now, I am beginning to believe giving an attorney a retainer fee is like getting into a car with a stranger the likelihood of getting screwed is high.
So here comes the draft of the agreement for review. Full of extraneous and inflammatory comments like ( in the phrase "parties will split the net proceed equally" he includes "if there are any proceeds". So unnecessary. Other comments that makes me wonder if we were in the same consultation together.
So I send it back with my revision. Comes back again with most but not one very important thing changed. I did not notice that until later so asked what next. Then he says he will send it to my son and sent me the cover letter for review. The cover letter? OMG-- So adversarial. Starts out with Dr Mr. S. I am representing Ms KB........ She asked me to send this for your review. And instructions for them to send it back and forth and then " if you have any questions I suggest you get your own attorney." His exact words. That is very adversarial. This is a friendly agreement not an adversarial situation.
And then I'm thinking that the meter is running every time he writes something for my review that is just a little off from what we talked about in the consulation and off from what the basic premises of this agreement. Plus he is charging me a " research fee" regarding my asking him his reasoning about one thing he advised me about. He has to research why he advises something? He does not know why he said that?
So, he will get an email from me tomorrow morning saying thank you for the advice and writing the agreement. That is all I hired him for. Since this is not an adversarial situation I do not need representation. I just need the legally sound agreement. An agreement does not need to be written on attorney's letterhead to be legal, just need both our signatures.
Then I get his bill so far--way more than a few hundred. I am angry, shocked and just sickened. Every time I think of what he has charged me for his misunderstandings my stomach clenches. What? Am I a horrible communicator? is he that stupid? am I stupid? is he milking me?
Trying to take care of myself today. Went swimming and am leaning on your shoulders. Will make a nice dinner, watch a movie and go to bed early tonight. An fire that attorney. Wonder how much he will charge me for that?!!!!!
In addition to this, I am right now working two jobs--12-14 hour weekdays plus running my business in between and on the weekends. Plus trying to do this. A little bit of stress.
Thanks for listening.
Back story - short version: I have decided to move forward with newly reunited son. I have also decided to let him gift/invest to me money for a down payment on a house which in return he is named in my will to get the house or if I sell it he gets his initial investment plus split the net profits. So, a win/win and no entanglements along the way. He has approached me with this several times in the past but has always had a controlling, condescending attitude with terms I could not accept. This time is different and we have agreed on terms and agreed I would get the attorney to advise us and write up the agreement. If he actually puts his money where his mouth remains to be seen but I am moving forward and will find out. I decided it would be worth the few hundred to get the agreement written up and see what happens with son.
My vent is with the attorney. I am soooo mad and sad right now. I hired him for a 1 hour consultation regarding the legalities on this and to write up the agreement. Everything seemed clear. But he required a huge retainer fee for that. I questioned that but he said what was not used would be returned to me. But now, I am beginning to believe giving an attorney a retainer fee is like getting into a car with a stranger the likelihood of getting screwed is high.
So here comes the draft of the agreement for review. Full of extraneous and inflammatory comments like ( in the phrase "parties will split the net proceed equally" he includes "if there are any proceeds". So unnecessary. Other comments that makes me wonder if we were in the same consultation together.
So I send it back with my revision. Comes back again with most but not one very important thing changed. I did not notice that until later so asked what next. Then he says he will send it to my son and sent me the cover letter for review. The cover letter? OMG-- So adversarial. Starts out with Dr Mr. S. I am representing Ms KB........ She asked me to send this for your review. And instructions for them to send it back and forth and then " if you have any questions I suggest you get your own attorney." His exact words. That is very adversarial. This is a friendly agreement not an adversarial situation.
And then I'm thinking that the meter is running every time he writes something for my review that is just a little off from what we talked about in the consulation and off from what the basic premises of this agreement. Plus he is charging me a " research fee" regarding my asking him his reasoning about one thing he advised me about. He has to research why he advises something? He does not know why he said that?
So, he will get an email from me tomorrow morning saying thank you for the advice and writing the agreement. That is all I hired him for. Since this is not an adversarial situation I do not need representation. I just need the legally sound agreement. An agreement does not need to be written on attorney's letterhead to be legal, just need both our signatures.
Then I get his bill so far--way more than a few hundred. I am angry, shocked and just sickened. Every time I think of what he has charged me for his misunderstandings my stomach clenches. What? Am I a horrible communicator? is he that stupid? am I stupid? is he milking me?
Trying to take care of myself today. Went swimming and am leaning on your shoulders. Will make a nice dinner, watch a movie and go to bed early tonight. An fire that attorney. Wonder how much he will charge me for that?!!!!!
In addition to this, I am right now working two jobs--12-14 hour weekdays plus running my business in between and on the weekends. Plus trying to do this. A little bit of stress.
Thanks for listening.
These past 2 years have been a true learning experience re lawyers and we are finished. We have been going thru some really serious things these past 2 years and neither of the 2 lawyers we had were worth two hoots. And, more importantly, they cannot be trusted.
I cannot go into all the detail, but in one year (and no decision) one lawyer gave us a bill for $31,000 in addition to a retainer of $10,000, along with all the arrogance we could take and then we fired him. DH is going pro se. In 2 weeks dh will be going into final hearing by himself. If he wins and gets legal fees, we will pay former Atty a "reasonable" amount. If not, he will be getting $10.00/month until we die. We have had enough of all this nonsence.
We just moved a few months ago and bought a home for sale by owner. The seller felt like we did so....no Realtors and no lawyers. My husband and seller began process with old fashioned handshake and we closed in a month.....no problems and we visited them in SC a few weeks ago.
We learned that no one has your best interest at stake more than YOU! And, the lawyers really are not so bright either. Run from them as fast as you can. We need them less than we think.
I don't remember specifically what it cost, but it was under a couple hundred. My mom, myself and my divorce lawyer sat down to talk about it....then he wrote it up.
In many ways, the way this guy is doing it will protect you though. If there's ever a dispute, each one of you having your own lawyer is what will make whatever agreement you sign now rock solid. It's just a thought, but lawyers deal with all sorts of people, maybe he's picking up on some reason to be extra careful..........
Lawyers are daylight robbers.I have no idea how they justify their charges.
I hope this works out for you.
My son and I agreed we wanted a written agreement and that it is legally sound.
How can he be soo stupid to put in little words like the lender, the borrower, repay when the very reason I consulted with him was about the legality of this being a GIFT with certain terms and condition down the road. And then I have to pay him to take those words out. And oh man the cover letter to my son would have had him running to the hills.
Igave..you make me laugh. Anyway, I sent my letter telling this man to send me what he has written and close my account and do not contact my son. It is making me sick to think of what he has charged me for a simple document and some advice and even more so to think of where this looked like it was going.
I amhappy with myself for catching this and putting a stop to it. But I am soooo stressed off the charts right now. Having trouble calming down. So much going on in addition to this. My stomach is in knots and I am cold, tense and having trouble thinking. I feel like crying every few minutes. Stressed about all that money that I took from savings. Stressed that I will probably now have to write it all out myself. And probably stressed that I do not know even if my son will honor what he said. I keep saying to myself--either he will or he won't but the unknown is not pleasant.
This is only one of the things going on right now. My life is good but very intense right now. I am on overwhelm right now. I am running my little home business and because it is a bit slow now do a BIG seasonal project for the Dept of Ed that has me working 12-14 hours weekdays. This project involves a ton of learning curve. It is fun but intense. Then in between and on the weekends, my business.
Thanks all of you....so nice to know you are right here.
Now gulp down that coffee and get back to work.
Charlotte Maria has a point. It *is* a conflict of interest to represent both you and your son, and if he is representing you, then it's good advice for your son to retain an attorney, too. If only one side is represented by counsel, the other side would never survive anything that ended up in court. Which, of course, you and your son *know* would never happen, but the guy is a lawyer, and he is trained to look at all angles and plan for the absolute worst.
The other thing is, he is a lawyer and trained to look at all angles and plan for the absolute worst. So, he sees things like maybe the property eventually going up for sale. . . but what if it ends up in a short sale? (which is a situation where there is no profit, only left-over debt) What if your son demands half of the proceeds and leaves you with ALL of the debt? That is probably the reason for the language about "if there are proceeds." And what if there is debt left over after the sale? Will your son split that 50/50 with you or expect you to pay it all?
These are things you and your son would never dream of happening, but the lawyer is paid to look at all the possibilities, even the ones you don't think will ever happen.
Not that any of that justifies his hideously obscene bill. I'd pay that in a million monthly installments of $5.00 each. . . in pennies. . .
But when he presented the draft.....it had unnecessary inflammatory and adversarial language that did not reflect what we had talked about in the consultation. As if he a) was not present there b) is really stupid c) is doing that on purpose to milk as much as he can get away with from me in revisions.
I asked him to change one word that made no legal difference, but would better reflect what the intention of the agreement. He neglected to do that in his initial revision. Then when I asked him to correct that, he charged me again for another revision.
I sent him an email over the weekend, but then decided to end all this so sent the second email that he opened this morning with these words in the subject line " disregard email dated 1/24, read this" And he charges me for reading the one I asked him to disregard. And he is charging me a research fee plus time to research my question: "what is the reason you gave me xyz. advice. "
Very unresaonable and unfair.
ARGGGG I am going to send him yet another letter telling him that I think those charges are unfair and ask him how he is going to pay me what little is left of my retainer. All very professionally of course. I will leave out all the cuss words I am spewing right now. And he better not charge me for explaining his bill.
But I got the agreement and his advice. To the tune of $1100 against the retainer he has. OUCH!!! What I will be getting back is what I was willing to pay for these services. I hoped to be putting that $1100 back in my savings.
Yep.....giving a lawyer a retainer fee is like getting into a car with a stranger. The liklihood of getting screwed is high.
Anyway, I am feeling less stress. Work went very well today. I went for a walk and even had time for a little visit with a friend.
Don't even get me started about lawyers......I'd like to chip in for a bag of cement tho :P
My retainer fee was $2500 to get a divorce.....I spent 130k for my divorce....gggggrrrrrrrrrr
I am used to legal letters being written that accurately reflect the consultation with NO revisions. This guy's fee is $198/hour. So I figured no more than about $400 for the consult and write our agreement. After all we went over it thoroughly. Then just add the usual disclaimers and parts that are in every legal paperwork. Copy and paste. How long does it take to do that? But I know he messed it up to run up my bill.
And he tells me that cover letter is his standard letter he sends to all non-represented people. So how much effort went into that?
If I treated my customers like that I'd be out of business. I do not charge my clients for learning things that I do not know or have to redo because I did not do it the first time.
When going through my 4 year long custody nightmare, I fired pretty horrible ones before I found an amazing one who served me very well. I will never forget her.
"Thank you for your quick response. There are several things I wish to address:
1. I appreciate your expert advice and having this professionally written and legally sound agreement.
2. I do understand that you would have needed to disclose that you are representing me if you were going to be communicating with my un-represented son. However, in this situation I prefer to do so myself.
3. I did receive your previous bill in the mail and this current one, both of which I have some concerns about:
a. I am confused about the charges for “research” plus “time to do research.” This seems redundant to me. I am also wondering why research or time to do research would be necessary given that you addressed “right of survivorship” during the consultation and I asked you for your reasoning behind your advice.
b. I noticed a charge for reading e-mails with the subject line indicating to disregard them—dated 1/23 and 1/24. I indicated that you should disregard these and read only the e-mail of 1/26 but I was charged for reading all of them. This seems unnecessary.
c.. I requested on 1/16 that if it made no legal difference, that you change the word “repay” to “pay” in the initial revision. That was not done as requested yet you are charging me a second revision time to go back in to delete two letters. This too seems unnecessary.
d. I did not ask you to write a letter to my son, yet you charged me for that.
The charges for the time mentioned above were extraneous and they should be removed. The following is what I believe is a fair payment for your time:
$218.63 Initial consultation
198.75 Work on agreement
59.63 Finish draft of Agreement and letter to me regarding the agreement
159.00 Read my 1/16 email, revise agreement.
59.00 Reading email dated 1/26 and responding to that.
$595.01 Total (minus the charge for research time)
Please deduct this amount from the retainer and send me a check for the remainder.