sheenre" your last questions...I do have to say that we've been "intimate" during this enitre time. Sometimes, he knows that when I'm not in the mood for whatever reason and I say no, that means NO...do NOT bug me about it; That's one thing I realized I have to do for myself is not to give in when I don't want to, just to please him. I am usuallyup to it though, except when I'm mad. Then, he realizes it and asks what's going on, etc.

mselliot: thank you for sharing that. That does bring more light to the situation on how revenge on my part really wouldn't have the affect that I'm looking for. The more we talk about why he thinks he has this problem, the easier it's getting. But, I'm still mad

i don't know how to get rid of this feeling that I want him to pay, either. It's gotten better. But everytime I deal with a trigger or a consequence from his actions.... it resurfaces.

I used to take it out on him verbally. I would let my anger come through and just lay into him.

the problem with getting revenge is that it hurt me more than it did him. He's also a covert narcissist, so when I rage at him, it feeds his narcissistic supply. And hardens my heart.

I want to heal, in order to do so, I have to let my heart be soft. Even though it's painful. In the end, I have to remember that I still want to be capable of love after this.

Another thing that is helping me, is to remember I want to be FREE of carrying the burden of punishing him. Because there is NO punishment against him that will take away my pain, or make me the innocent woman I was before he brought all this crap into my life. Nothing will make it better. Nothing will make it as though it didn't happen. NOTHING. I am changed forever.

So.... that leaves me with the chioce to lug around the burden of punishing him that keeps me chained to him, his narcissism, my pain, his pain, his addiction, my low self worth and ALL the garbage.....
OR I can let him go, accepting that God will serve up whatever justice He deems appropriate, and I can be free of having to try to make it fair, equal and just again.

The pain from his addiction ripped me in two. I am refusing to continue to let it rip me apart by lashing out at him. It's not easy, but it's getting better. It's been about 4 weeks since the last time I took it out on him. I'm going to try to keep going. Again, not easy, but it's not my job to judge/punish him.

My job is to heal.

You sound like a woman on the road to recovery, Michelle. That sounds very healthy. I have struggled and am struggling with Letting Go much less forgiveness. That will be a long process for me.

Michele. You said, "Because there is NO punishment against him that will take away my pain, or make me the innocent woman I was before he brought all this crap into my life. Nothing will make it better. Nothing will make it as though it didn't happen. NOTHING. I am changed forever."

I think that is the hardest part of all of this, realizing that we are changed and nothing can remedy that. Of course, I was already much different than in my dreamland youth. I had already had those girlish dreams shattered into oblivion. So, even if my h hadn't done this, I would have never been fully capable of fully free love or trust anyway. My first marriage had destroyed that for the most part already. I did try it though, had hope...chalked the X up to a bad luck draw...and thought it was gone. And tried again....able at least to try to love...whatever that means...no so sure at this point.

You said, "my job is to heal." I don't know what that means. Does to heal mean that I can feel as I once did? Does it mean that I can learn to tolerate the losses better? I'm not sure what that means. does it mean that it quits hurting? Or that I can have hope for something? I don't know what that means. Maybe I'll get that at some point...but thus far I haven't. No one seems to be able to say what "heal" means.

What does "Healing" mean from illness? If you have a virus? Broken bone? Laceration? What does it mean when these things heal? At what point do you consider yourself healed?

I think I consider healing when the hurt is tolerable and I no longer want the stbx's certain body part to go missing! (Hope that puts a smile on somebody's face.) I also look for the anger, hatred, and rage to dissapear somewhat. I no longer want to be consumed by an addiction that isn't mine. Finally I want to figure out who I am now, do for me, and feel good about moving on and one day allowing myself to be happy.

I think healing probably means different things to different people, since the particulars and the depth of the pain probably differ from person to person.

When I think of my 'job' of healing I think of this: What am I responsible for in my heart, mind and soul? Who am I responsible to/for? Who am I no longer responsible for/to and how can I let go of that? My life, no matter how painful or what kind of trials I have, is mine. I was given it, it is a gift. I am responsible for what I do with my gift. So.... am I going to let myself become bitter and spent my life getting revenge? Am I going to spend it in self pity? Am I going to spend it helping others to heal? Am I going to invest in my children? Am I going to invest in myself so that I CAN help others and invest in them and my children? ...

I don't have all the answers and none of this is easy. BUT... I'm still responsible for being faithful with what I've been given, even if what I've been given is pain. What am I going to do with this pain? There's a Sara Groves song I love, and one of the lyric lines is :

I can't make it
I can't break it
I can't afford it,
But it's mine.

I don't know how else to do this without destroying myself, quite honestly. It hurts. It makes me angry. It makes me sad. It's devastating. But I will not let it become all that I am. There is more to this life than pain, and I intend to find joy again.

Grlly: I don't know. I don't know what that means from an emotional view. I have broken an arm and it hurt for a really long time. I had to wear a cast for it to reconnect in the right direction. And then it got better and I was able to use it again in its full capacity. I do know that our body will heal from many things. And some things heal from looking at the outside, but are virtually unuseable. I have a place on my body, on my left leg, from just above my knee to mid thigh that is constantly numb from a nerve injury. I can use it, but if I walk for a long time it hurts and sometimes I can't walk very far at all. A dibilitation...permanent. I live with it...and work around it.

I think that my past experience taught me some things about emotional/psychological injuries. And I don't particularly like what I learned about that. I sustained a huge amount of emotional and physical damage from my first marriage. It took me years to get over the emotional damage, though the physical was very quick, and the psych damage left huge scars and twists in many areas of my psyche. Some that though I am aware, I can't seem to recover from.

I stayed far too long in that situation....and I suffered with PTSD from it, though it took years to find out what was wrong with me. I didn't know what it was until many years later. I ran...I got on my feet and my life had gone on. I was much happier. But I had nightmares, and intermittent anxiety attacks, and occasional depression. Didn't know what was wrong with me for many years. I went on with life, and suffered off and on without knowing why. Just feeling different from others, damaged, wrong.

But, underneath there, somewhere inside me, were some real damaged places. I would suffer anxiety attacks and bouts of depression for many years to come. I did finally, for the most part, conquer that....maybe twenty years later...until this happened. Meaning I had no more nightmares...and no anxiety attacks...and little depressive episodes.

When this happened about 2 1/2 years ago, it all came back in a flood. Anxiety...fear...panic...confusion...black despair. Mostly, I have control of that again. Only have periodic episodes where I panic and want to run like H...don't know where to...but run away from all the emotions that torment my mind. I know that there is no where to run...it lives inside of me...and where I go...it goes. I knew that when it started...I've been there.

So, maybe I have had more fear since this happened, since I found out about it, than some. I had learned to trust again, something I was surprised that I could do...not completely though...and I'm ever so glad for that. I can't imagine what I would feel like had I been totatlly trusting and totally unaware. Good Lord...I can't even imagine that...though that is what happened in my first marriage. Shock....disbelief...incredible emotional pain....and longlasting damage that stilted my life, and repressed a lot of joy in its wake.

I think my worst fear when I found out about this, when he got caught, and the emotional tidalwave began, was never that my marriage was over...but that I couldn't be happy again...and that the additional damage to my emotional health would totally break me this time. Create an unhappy, nervous, anxiety-ridden, emotionally ill person, for the remainder of my life. So healing from an emotional injury is much harder for me...I know...I've lived it. I fear that more than anything. Living on the edge. Wondering how long this time? Will I suffer the rest of my life? Will I ever feel safe to try and love again? Is it even a wise decision? Chaotic thoughts...fear...and panic.

I'm not sure if I could honestly say that I ever "healed" from all of the damage of my first marriage...and if I did...it was very short lived. If putting it behind me, and restoring hope, and going on, and offering love again was healed...feeling relatively confident...and fiesty...and happy...and full of dreams and plans...then I was.

And maybe, when I first saw what this H had done so many years ago, the healing from the previous injury was ripped open again and didn't heal back completely. I don't know. And now...ripped to shreds inside of me. And, I'm not sure what to hope for. I guess that what I can hope for is that I am able to tolerate the damage once more...and to go on in life, missing a few more parts. And with those parts missing I can live without underlying anxiety and fear. If that is healed...then I'm not.

If healing is when I no longer feel outright rage...then yes I am. If it means that I can sleep without nightmares...I am. If it means that I can have at least part of a day when I'm not struggling with conflicting emotions, then I can. If it means that I can see the logic of staying, I can. If it means I still have some emotional ties to him...then I do. If it means the I retain some hope for a reasonably good future, I do. If it means that I for the most part feel that he will never do this again...I do.

But, if it means that I feel good, and fiesty and confident and sure...then I don't. If it means that I don't fear...I'm not healed. I fear many things...mostly about my emotional health, not about the marriage. The marriage is secondary now. My emotional health my primary concern. I try to think of feeling confident..and free of anxiety...at least underlying...and I can't grasp how that can happen. I HOPE that it can...but I don't know how. I guess that's my problem in a nutshell.

Each time I begin to feel comfortable...content...let the guards down..I soon panic and run backwards emotionally...on guard...walled-off...panicky. So, I don't know how to really address that...other than to ride the waves. I wish I knew how...but I don't. Maybe someday. I haven't given up hope...that is far too scarey to think about.

I hope...I think...that it isn't like my leg...numb most of the time...but painful on full usage. Permanetly damaged. I hope it is like my arm and doesn't hurt me, and is fully functional....though it hasn't been for nearly twenty years. I am not at this time fully functional. So, I search for a way to be that. And, at the same time, I fear being that....and the numbness sounds like a good thing...unfeeling...unnoticeable...not obvious.

I try to remember far enough back to drag up the emotinal feeling of vigor and excitement about the possibilities in the future. Like I did when I was young, before the damage began. And it is sooooo far back. I think that I set my jaw and resolve to survive...and I did. And, I was able to do many things...and not others. And, maybe that's the way it is. That I will be able to do some things...and not others from now on. And that feeling makes me very remorseful...so my mind runs in a circle, creating a deep groove, and I can't see the way out of the cycle.

I know that a person "should" be able to feel free, loving, confident, excited. To me, that is healed...I think.

I think that full healing takes a LONG time, and you're right, it's longer for emotional scars than for physical. But I think you got the gist of my question, Sheen. There's a metaphor to a healing body that I think can be useful to get a bead on where you are in the process.

When I was young, I broke my leg. It took a long time for the bone to mend. When the cast came off finally, the muscles had atrophied a little. I was much weaker than before. I could walk, and it wasn't even long before I could walk with no limp, but it took a long time to regain my bounce in that leg. The spring in it. It came back eventually, but I still have a little weather sensitivity and a slight lump/ bruise where it broke. I can still feel the spot if I think about it hard (like I'm doing now) but it's like a memory of pain rather than pain itself.

I think that no matter what the injury is, you're never exactly like you were before it happened. There are little reminders, little scars, but maybe you're healed when you're okay with whatever is left. If I lost an arm, I might never again be quite as functional as I am now, but I'd eventually adapt, and I would eventually get to a place of acceptance with what was left and what I still could do.

When it comes to healing, physical or emotional scars, I think attitude is one of the most important factors. And that knowledge that you'll survive... it's so important. Not everyone has that. You're very lucky.

Yes Grlly...I know that I'm lucky in many ways. There are others who suffer so much more. I know...I've seen it. And at least I know enough to empathize. And, I'm one tough customer. I had to be to survive. I had no idea until this most recent thing two and half years ago occured just how far I had come, and how tough I was to do all that I had done in the last forty plus years. I took that good look back..really closely...and I saw the steadfast attitude and sheer raw nerve, courage and resolve that it took to do so much from the place in life where I began.

Everytime things knocked me down to my knees, I got up and fought to do better. I think the beatings I endured from my XH contributed to that tough attitude in many ways. In so many ways. I got really tough, and I knew one thing, that no one could stop me, without killing me. And that no longer scared me either. No wonder I acquired PTSD. A psychiatrist told me long ago that I was the only civilian he had ever encountered who had true PTSD. Wow...a prize! Ha!

My XH had beaten me, drugged and raped me, and he wanted to control and destroy me, but he couldn't. I, being 17 going on 12, was much like a prisoner of war who relates with their captors. Far too naive to see the traps, and intentional subjugation. I did learn though. I remember telling him when he did that, you can beat me...force me...to say or do anything you like...I'm not physically strong enough to stop you...but...you can never, ever, change my mind, no matter what you do to me.

He was never able to change me into what he was, nor believe the things he did about life, not through any kind of pain nor threat he inflicted. I remained who I am...and I respect that person in there who refused to bend to his attempt at brainwashing and control. The big tough man lost...and the naive little girl survived. The turtle and the hare? HA!

And I saw, while looking back at my life, like an outside observer in many ways, the emotional damage I had sustained through the years, and how those affected me all along, and robbed me of many things. But, it didn't rob it all. I had things that I wanted to do, things I knew I needed to learn, challenges to conquer...a life to live...like you said.... never again quite as functional as I might have been in other circumstances, but with what was left. And, I got up, and did whatever I could do to the best of my ability every time I faced a frightening challenge.

Nothing ever scared me as much as the panic and confusion...not even the beatings could do that. I learned things. Bad things and good things. I took them all forward with me, just as I will now. This last thirty years has done the same...bad and good. And, I know that it will all go forward with me...and that I will survive. I hope that I can do it without so much anxiety. I hate that so much. It robbed me already of so much. It didn't stop me from doing all I could do in life. Though I often wonder what it would feel like to be a normal funcional person. And, then that often dredges up anger, though it doesn't rule me. I won't let it rule me. But it is there.

I'll try Grlly...that's all I can do...one day at a time.

I am so thinking about the score card I just told my husband I was going on a website to date. Now, I am still in houston and very unhappy that i didn't get to go home but so much has come to light onthis trip. I hear your pain and your needs sometimes I think they forget we are only human too. I support whatever you do just take some time and think about it. You have all the time in the world to even the score card wether it is for you or him...hugs

Does anyone else have momentary flashes when they imagine doing unspeakable physical harm to their SO?

I think that's more how I imagine "getting back" at him, rather than the cheating which for some reason doesn't seem like it would hurt him enough.

Grlly: Yes I did think about that...and I had to remove myself from the situation really often to prevent exactly that for a really long time. My sister got really scared for me because of that. She said that I often seemed very crazed and at the fine edge of control. I spent a lot of time away from home at her house during the first year. If I felt too angry, I didn't go home. Thank goodness for her!

This is so funny! I was so hurt by his seeking to ogle the naked boobs and body of others...that I was so pissed...I was going to go down to the local mini-market and catch a poor unfortunate fellow, and bare my boobs to him and ask if they were attractive. My sister stopped me, or I might really have done that. I really was crazed for a while. Probably would have gone straight to jail. Wouldn't that be quite a charge to address in court? Hilarious! How very stupid of me...pain can bring such ignorance at times. As if someone else appreciating my boobs would make anything better at all. A complete stranger who doesn't even know me? Whacky! Very inconsiderate and tacky too! When I saw the most recent chick he'd been attracted to, it was clearly her huge, fake, boobs. Her face was extremely hard and unattractive too. And I of course felt that my boobs were the issue...just not quite big enough, or fake enough, or whatever! Crap! I really do hate him when I think of that!

I knew underneath it all that wouldn't work anyway...or do me any good either. My X beat the crap out me trying to change who I was and it didn't work. He suggested to me about sharing our bed with others and all kinds of weirdness, then said he was just joking, and that I was crazy to take him seriously, and when I told him what I thought of him and wanted to leave, he beat me. It never worked. He never changed me into what he so prized.

So, even though my situation is different here with this h, and I would like to have beaten him senseless...or sensible...HA...I knew it was hopeless and futile. I did however, throw some real rage fits at times. Not to try and get him to do anything at all, but because I couldn't contain the rage. I'm glad that I didn't try to contain it entirely, as I usually would...that really isn't good for a person at all. I've read that one needs to find a "healthy" way to express their anger. If there is a healthy way to express that much anger, I don't know what it is. I suspect it is a subpoena from a very smooth lawyer...ha!

These days I have more momentary flashes of hurt and sorrow than anger. Although, when I feel that way, I do feel some anger directed toward him that he instituted the pain and suffering I endure and can't seem to conquer. He knew a lot of what I suffered with husband one...and then to do this is just so cruel. He could have been more cruel if he so desired to do that....but then again...I think he does value his hide somewhat. Ha!

I guess that is the longterm affect of this kind of thing. Never feeling complete, or totally relaxed. Seems there is always that ball of hurt somewhere inside that refuses to let go...and that keeps a certain distance...and a certain amount of anger...anxiety...discontent...nervousness...a lot of things.

You said that it is "acceptance" that you feel may be the answer. And that is just so hard to do...to accept that I can never be a whole person again...because of this. Even if I left, even left the first day, I would never be who I once was, or feel as I once did. What a monumental cost for his thrills. Jerk! See, it does still make me mad sometimes. I have to accept that I will never really feel attractive in his presence anymore. And, that I will never feel fully satisfied or content sexually either. And I feel I have to accept that I do know he loves me, but not as I had hoped and believed. So, I guess it seems to me that I get a trade, love for marriage. The marriage is saved...as there is no divorce. But, the love...stunted...or crippled.

I've been gone from this website for about a week. I've been off my zoloft for 2 weeks, after starting back on it for 2 weeks.

I have to say that my panic attacks, triggers, manic lows have all become at a much lower level. I still think about what HE did. I still feel the anger, betrayal, disappointment, etc. However, I'm learning how to seperate him from the actual addiction. Because of him ackowleding his addciton, he's trying much harder at our relationship. He is here, with me...instead of "wandering" or "wondering".

I haven't acted on my anger lately, which is good. I haven't lashed out at him physically or verbally. Nor have I cheated on him to 'even the score'. I can say that those urges still exist and am trying to tame them. He still bores the scars of when I did lash out at him. That is something that will remind him of the pain he caused when I'm not around.

My therapist did ask if I respected him from my rage outbursts. I hesitated. I realized then that I did not, and didn't really care if I did cheat on him, then him find out. That was an eye opener. I did tell him how I felt. He listened.

I have been concentrating more on what I want, what I need, what makes ME happy. I've put him out of the equation for once in our relationship and it has helped.

However, I do think about when the urge arises, and the oppurtunity is there...would I cheat on him to "even the score" . I KNOW he won't feel my exact hurt, but yet I know it WILL hurt him

I have to add that my healing is about getting to the core of ME. I have to find that tranquile place within. I have to find some peace where I can accept flaws from him and from within myself, and grow upon them. To heal to me means to get through the bad times, learn from past mistakes or triumphs and move on. To heal is to look past the hurt that this strange unconceivable addiciton has caused me and to think of what caused this addicition in the first place for my SO. To heal is to know that I could not prevent this from happening and I had nothing to do with it. H used porn as an escape goat. As a self esteem booster. As a stress reliever. As an escape from reality. H used those women in the porn as an OBJECT whereas he NEEDED me. That is somelhing I am trying to comprehend as a part of my healling. My recovery.

A part of my healing has to do with me being able to move on with or without H. I have to learn to not to take this in stride. I am NOT an object. I am of worth.