Em: Whose idea to go to counseling? His or yours? Does he care that you are discouraged, tired, etc? Does he know that you still don't trust him? Is he doing anything about that himself? You can trust a person who isn't going out of their way to be trustworthy. Is he?

EmTheo: you are more patient than me. No way I could live with a practicing sa not in recovery nor in counseling. I know that is not encouraging or what you want to hear but I think 5 counselors in 3 years is quite a few. Did they all say pretty much the same thing and your h refused to go back? If that is the case, to me that's not good. It does get old....the whole stinking thing gets old. hugs to you

Of the four we've been to: two of them were ones he picked and they recommended open marriage to us (of course I won't go back to them). One was my therapist, which we decided was a little too difficult because he knew so much of the story from my side, and he really was my therapist, not "ours". One was another therapist I picked who was recommended to me and long story very short h said he would never go back (I think b/c she wasn't recommending open marriage). At that point I gave up and realized there was no use going until he admitted a problem. I also wrote him a letter in october telling him I was done and I was never again going to put up with porn in my house or any other SA behavior and invited him to recovery and SA meetings while I go to s-anon meetings. He said he would never go to a meeting and would make sure he would never have to go by being on perfect behavior. So since Oct, he has been very good at this. I haven't been uncomfortable in my own home, and he has been a wonderful family man doing all the right things. Sending more later....

However I was under no illusion it would last, because he wasn't doing any of the hard work of recovery. I was just taking it a day at a time and working the 12 steps for myself. Recently he has started a working "friendship" with another woman, and it started triggering me big time into bad memories of his last affair. So I mentioned polygraph test and he said he would like to talk about that more at marriage counseling. So I guess I figured I would give it another try and get a new name of a new therapist. I asked around at s-anon and got the name of someone new to me who is supposed to be fantastic.

He told me he doesn't want to go to anyone if I got the name at s-anon. I am going to make an appointment anyway and tell him to meet me there. If he doesn't show, then I'll have another decision to make...

Em: You are doing all that YOU can do. You're enviting him to a healthy marriage. If he doesn't want that...then he'll make that decision. You're doing exactly as you should. Then, if he doesn't want to do right...you'll know that you have. Good for you Sweetheart!

Sorry Em, these theraist often do more harm than good...imagine open marriage...that is an oxymoron..if it is open it is no marriage which is between 2 people..good girl not to fall for that crap..my therapist told me most of those marriages end up in his offcie or divorce even when they agree on it upfront...having anyone else in your marriage is a bar to intimacy!

Clearly your SA wants to go to a therapist that si just going to tell him what he wants to hear, not the truth, not confront the issue, I had one like that that ruined any chance of my SA doing honest work since she reaffirmed his wrongthinking...she is an idiot and I pray for any other woman who goes to her..hope they don't get sucked in...and some just want to save the marriage, without saving the people in it...dumb...save the people first and then decide if they can be married...some marriages should not be saved...

Hate to say it but he sounds like my H...no problem I just won't do it agian...just believe me...right...like I am an idiot...he can live in his fantasy world..I live in the real world and if he wants to be with me he has to do the hard work and admit the problem, not just pretend....we already did that....Yours will continue to do as little as he can get away with as long as you accept it...people accept the love they think they deserve...I think you deserve better... real love...rea marriage or no dice as far as I am concerned...and becasue they are SAs, sorry but now you have to prove it, not just promise and be trusted like you were before, or other men get to be becasue they are not SAs and have not been unfaithful...

Whenever I wanted something for thehouse my SA would say..you can have anything you want, it all depends how much yo want to pay...now I say it to him....I have already paid a price that was way too high and I would not have paid had I been given a choice..if he had told me I would have run screaming to the hills...if I was to ever accept being married to an SA he would have to get it under control, and becasue of his actions it would have to not only be the marriage it should have been, but he'll have to pay the price for a long time..maybe forever..if you want to know if he is serious tell him the change is FOREVER...not just today, a week, a year,, FOREVER...that will usually get the SA to decide if he is serious...FOREVER...too controlling for SAs...ok goodbye...

You can have a good life without him if he does not get help. Your choice...you have to do what is best for you. Good luck..

Thanks for your encouragement Sheen and drptrials... you're helping me stay strong. i called the new therapist today and made an appt for saturday. I'm going to talk to h tonight about going together.

Sometimes I start thinking mis-guided thoughts like "if I stop going to 12-step meetings and stop saying anything when he comes home at midnight from her house then we'll have peace and it would be the easiest way to achieve peace in our home". But I know I can't live like this anymore. I know he's playing the game for me and it is not a lasting healing.

Please pray for me... I feel scared tonight, but staying strong.

Em: If you did that...the only one who would have peace is him.

I don't blame you Em for being triggered. What are your boundaries regarding his working with another woman? Must be at work? with others around? not past 8pm? I think that is why you are feeling at a loss. your boundaries are being violated and your body is telling you this. "old behavior" of yours would be to ignore it. Hang in there and hope Sat. works out.

Thanks cyn...I didn't get a chance to talk with him yesterday, but will tonight. He is writing a script with her for a second film. So they are often out scriptwriting, and she doesn't have a car so he has to take her home from wherever they are before he comes home. Sometimes it is past 11:00 or 12:00.

I recently gently asked him how it is going with not surfing online porn (I haven't asked him in months, as he doesn't do it in front of me like he used to). He stayed silent but then said he feels like a criminal in his own home... hmmm...

Em: You go on as long as you want to...as long as you feel that there is hope. We all feel that way...afraid...sometimes. I still do off and on...even though my H has been really good for a really long time. I'm so lucky there....either that or I have a really mean left hook...ha...that's a joke! Sometimes I do think the left hook was the most affective tool...ha...meant to be amusing. How does he treat you when you're having a panic trigger? Is he sympathetic if you tell him that certain things trigger bad memories and fear? I think that's so important...or it is to me. I tell my H and he does his best to be supportive and tender, even though he struggles too with it making him angry that the hold of the past is tenuous. It's such a tough thing to overcome on both sides. I personally don't let anything slide that disturbs me. Not sure if that is bad or good for the relationship...but I feel it is better for me to air the feelings rather than stew in them?

I found this helpful


First of all let me say that your situation is not hopeless. You said you want to stay together with your husband, but you are afraid he will cheat on you again. It is not certain that cheating will occur again. Of course if we compare your husband to a person who has never cheated in his life, the threshold for cheating is probably lower for your husband. However, that does not mean he will automatically cheat again. This was the first time your husband got caught and additionally, he was not in love with this woman. If he got caught before and still continued cheating, I would be forced to say to you that the prospect is not very good. But since this is the first time, it is a completely different situation.

There are people who cheat but after being caught and after seeing the pain and hurt their beloved ones must go through due to their actions, they will never cheat again. They also realize, perhaps for the first time, that their relationship is not something they can take for granted, but that they actually were very close losing their family due to cheating. This is a very frightening prospect, and many people simply do not want to risk it will happen, and therefore they will not cheat again after getting caught. The threshold for cheating has suddenly increased significantly for them.

For this reason I believe everyone deserves a second chance. Yes, cheating is wrong, but we can all make mistakes. On the other hand, if cheating has been going on for a very long time, it makes it harder to forgive. There are many aspects that need to be considered and each case is unique. However, if two people want to stay together after cheating has occurred, it is good for them to know that the situation is not hopeless.

Then there is another category of people, who simply do not care about the emotions of people around them enough to prevent them from cheating again after they get caught. These people only think of themselves and are unable to put themselves into the position of another person. Narcissists typically belong to this category and hence they often end up having multiple affairs. But it sounds like your husband is not narcissistic. You said you get along well, you wrote that you "click". That is a good place to be in terms of fixing the relationship and regaining the trust.

Yes, I believe counseling can definitely help, if both parties want to improve the situation and are really committed to work on returning the trust in relationship. I warmly recommend you to go to counseling. If your husband has some sort of sexual addiction, it can be treated as any other addiction. Dear Friend, again let me say that the situation is not hopeless. Also remember that your husband was not in love with this woman. This will help you. Your husband says he loves YOU. I sounds like he is being sincere and that the relationship with this other woman was only about sex. Of course that does not justify cheating, however I believe you would feel even more hurt if your husband had a longtime romantic love-affair with another woman behind your back.

Remember that getting rid of any addiction is very hard. If your husband really has some sort of sex addiction, there might be relapses. If your husband truly loves you and wants to do everything he can to make the relationship work, his motivation to get rid of his addiction is very high and hence his chances of succeeding are good. If there will be a relapse, it will be very painful not only for you but also for your husband. You should think beforehand how you will react if there will be a relapse. Can you forgive second time? Even if you think you think you can, do not tell that to your husband, you do not want to make him feel that you are taking this thing lightly.

I cannot say much regarding whether the masturbation is enough to satisfy a person who needs lots of sexual fulfillment. These things depend on the person in question and each case is unique. The main thing is the will of a person to get rid of the problem. Based on your email it sounds like your husband really loves you and wants to stay together. Make it clear to him that you are not going to accept this kind of a thing happening again. Give your husband some literature regarding the recovery process after cheating, so that he knows what you are going through and he realizes you cannot get over something like this overnight, but that it takes at list 1-2 years for you to recover after the betrayal such as this, perhaps even longer. When your husband understand the extent of the damage his actions have caused on your relationship and how long it takes to repair the damage, that hopefully increases his threshold for cheating in the future even more.

I really wish you are able to work things out with your husband and stay together. I am saying this because I could feel from your email that you really love your husband and wish that you could learn to trust him again. Dear Friend, it is possible, however you need to be patient. Give yourself time.



Phase 1: Initial shock after finding out about cheating

This is the stage when you feel completely lost, disoriented and crushed after learning about cheating or an affair. You feel strong anger towards both your cheating spouse and the Lover with whom the cheating took place. You may even become violent towards one or both of them. Your mind is full of horrible thoughts related to the event of cheating or an affair, most of them being a mixture of pain, anger, jealousy, frustration, depression, anxiety and mistrust towards your cheating spouse.

___________

Phase 2: Attempt to stabilize your life after cheating or an affair

If your cheating spouse has left you after you found out about cheating or if you have left your spouse

You are slowly starting to accept the new course your life is now taking. The feelings related to cheating or an affair such as anger, pain, anxiety and depression are still in you, but since nothing concrete is constantly reminding you of your cheating spouse (he or she is not around on daily basis), recovery will be much faster than if your cheating spouse was constantly around and you would try to make the relationship work again.

If your cheating spouse has stayed with you after cheating took place and you are trying to heal your relationship

You may feel as a winner for a while and may even feel happy that your cheating spouse has "chosen" you and not the Lover with whom the cheating took place. You feel you have gotten over the pain, anxiety, depression and anger since your cheating spouse has (most likely) apologized the betrayal and has promised to be faithful to you and never to cheat again. Deep in your mind you have only wished that you could somehow brush away the memory of cheating or an affair and that your life could be the way it used to be. It is natural for a human being to wish that things would stay unchanged. The change can be a frightening thing, since it is always a jump to the unknown. You have gotten used to the life with your spouse before cheating took place, part of your identity is to be his or her partner. If you separate your life will change fundamentally. That is a very unpleasant thought. That is why you wish that you could somehow make things work again after cheating took place. For a while you are enjoying the "second honeymoon", a wonderful feeling you get when you think your spouse is not going to go away as a result of cheating or an affair, that your husband or wife CHOSE you, that your life with your spouse will continue despite the cheating and as a consequence there will be no great changes in your life. What you are not aware of yet is that your life has already changed fundamentally due to cheating or an affair. Your relationship to your cheating spouse will never be the same again. This does not necessarily mean your relationship will be worse, but it will be different. This is something you must accept before you can truly move on with your life, forgive, forget and get over cheating, lying and betrayal. During this phase your self-confidence slowly starts to return and you start to feel more secure. It helps you to improve your self-esteem if you are taking good care of yourself, both mentally and physically. If you see a healthy person when you look into a mirror, it boosts your self-esteem and reduces the intensity of your painful emotions. Even if you feel you have been neglecting yourself in the past, this is a good time to start to take care of yourself.

___________

Phase 3: Second wave of anger after cheating

You only go through this phase if you have decided to stay with your spouse after cheating or an affair and you are trying to make your relationship work again.

After some time has passed and the routine has again stepped in to your relationship, the memories of cheating, lying and betrayal performed by your husband or wife start to come back to you. The memories of cheating or an affair might make you feel an extreme anger towards your cheating spouse at unexpected moments, in the middle of making love, during a romantic dinner etc. The memories of the betrayal, lying and cheating will flatten your feelings towards your husband or wife and create anger, frustration, anxiety and strong mental pain. You are furious because your spouse cheated on you and lied to you. You thought your husband or wife (or girlfriend or boyfriend) is your base rock in this life, the one person you can always trust and who truly cares for you, and now all this has changed forever as a result of cheating. You start to realize you can never go back to the time when you felt unconditional trust towards your spouse. The images of your cheating spouse and the Lover keep coming back to you and are causing you great mental and even physical pain. During this phase of recovery after cheating or an affair you feel sometimes very happy and sometimes very sad. You are wondering if you can ever fully trust your cheating spouse again. This is the phase during which you are finally starting to realize and accept that your relationship with your spouse will be permanently different from now on. You are starting to accept that you can never return back to the way things were before cheating took place.

___________

Phase 4: Final adjustment after cheating or an affair

If your relationship has survived until this point after cheating took place, it has good changes of continuing even after the trauma created by the betrayal. During this phase of the recovery, the memory of cheating or an affair is finally starting to sink into the past. If you are still together with your spouse, you are starting to adjust to the way your relationship now is, without longing for the past which can never return.

If you and your husband or wife survived up to this point without separating, your relationship has good chances of becoming even stronger than it was before cheating took place. But your relationship has also become very fragile and vulnerable should any kind of dishonesty occur. If cheating, lying and betrayal occur again, the process of the recovery takes much longer than it took the first time and in a worst case the recovery, healing and regaining the trust towards your spouse may not be complete. And that is the way it should be: This is the way of the nature to warn you that you should not invest all your trust and love into an individual who is repeatedly letting you down, lying to you and betraying you.

Ladies,
Someone passed this site onto me and I found many helpful articles. Check it out.

http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/brokenmarriage

http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/healingforwives.htm

Thanks again, both of those are very helpful. I talked to h and he said he would think about going on saturday. I probably won't really know if he's coming with me until its time to go out the door. It doesn't seem very likely right now...but I don't know what he's thinking. Whatever it is, my guess is it is based in fear. Because I feel strong. I'm saying over and over in my mind to stay focused on staying clear and on love. And love doesn't need to mean forgiveness. It can mean hard consequences. Also, this sounds weird, but I'm focusing on the hard times.... the worst of times that I usually want to forget. Otherwise, during the light of day, he's like "everything's fantastic with us!" and I start doubting myself and thinking "what is the problem again? I must be overreacting".