really interesting discussion - I am open to it, whereas in the past I wasn't. I'm going to give letting go the hatred a go.

sadave -
Thank you! I have had several others that understood this was my choice for moving on and I was not trying to say it would be the correct thing for all, but for me it is. But you have summed it up better than just about anyone that I have heard from. Very well put and I am glad you see that I was just talking about where I am at this stage. I have drug this around for 46 years, my abusers are both dead and whereas their acts were horrendous and sub-human - they were people. I do believe in order to take the final step in my healing this is required and it will be an ongoing process. Too many scars (literally) to say "Oh I forgive and they are off the hook" - it is not about them, but me at this point.
About 2 years ago I knew I was moving into this final process as I one day realized I had not thought of my abuse or abusers for like 6 months - had no reason to. I have processed SO much anger and resentment, have been through the hatred - been through therapy for the best part of 34 years - if I can conduct myself with that little thought to it, I knew I was past the major hurt and finally about through with it.
I was a very loving child before the abuse and believe, FOR ME, that if I was to expect to be forgiven, I had to forgive. I am just taking ME back. I am not saying others have to or need to forgive, but I no longer find hatred and despise useful - it has no more benefit for me, so it was needless baggage and my goal was to return to being like I was before the abuse to the best of my ability. I posted this in the incest forum and really got hit with a lot of guilt- trips - or at least offered the tickets for the trips. But I tried to tell everyone that I was not trying to convince them they had to "go there", but for me it is time.
Thank you for the concise and well stated understanding. Really nice to see someone really got it - a couple others did too and several sent me PM's in agreement, but did not want to post it publicly as they knew they may get trashed also - sad that no everyone is willing to accept that all journeys are different and may end very differently.
nelliefay - thanks again to you - I hope that you find what makes YOU happy, I really don't think any of us should decide to just follow someone else's lead as they did not have YOUR experience.
BTW - I still hate when I hear of a child getting abused or another new member comes on the site with their pain - and I do feel some hatred toward their abusers, as I did mine, because of the pain that may lie ahead. I was not letting ANY abuser off the hook except mine - and their lifestyle led to their deaths. I do believe that ALL abusers should be given the maximum sentence and pay for what they did. But my forgiveness of them is for me, not them. I can live with that. The hatred and holding onto the negative feelings are just no longer needed for me.
All my best -
Refuse2quit

This has been a very interesting topic. It got me thinking about where I was in my process. As I look deeper into myself I can say that there is still anger of the act but I do not feel the hate that I had early on to my abuser. I guess now I just wonder if they ever realized what they had done was wrong. Since I never addressed them about the act did they even have a clue of what their actions had done to me. At one point I wanted o search them out and ask the if they understood the impact their actions had on my life. I no longer have the urgent feelings I once had to do that. I can not say I forgive them but I just have no thoughts about them. No emotional tie to them. I do still have an emotional tie to the event. As with you Refuse2quit my sexual abuse happened long ago and I buried it. So I have had a long time with my emotions. Who knows what will be the path I will travel but I know I must keep traveling down some path to get healthy. We all have our own paths as you have put forth.

I agree with the forgiveness because I do not want to bear that weight on my shoulders for one thing. I hate what they did and I hate what sin does to people. As people we are all sinners in need of a Saviour. Even abusers. I believe there is a devil and his wishes to destroy and tear down lives. I know something horrible and terrible happens to people when they do what they want to do and leave God out. I am getting better. I have a long way to go . Jesus is getting me through and I know that he has brought me out to the other end. God is going to bring something good out of the situation. Even if it just my healing and survival. I I believe more. It is not going to be all sunshine and good things happening. all the time but life and knowing a home in heaven is a pretty good for me.

cherylm999-
Thank you for the input. I have had so many PM's from people who felt as I did, but did not want to deal with the backlash from others who do not believe in forgiveness or who believe it was a cop out. I am not advocating that it is for everyone nor is it healthy if you have not completely processed the entire spectrum of your emotional, mental sexual and physical damage. But for me as I have said, the time has come - and it will be a process all it's own. I will be doing a lot of thinking about how this impacts me for years to come. But I know that I am on the correct path. After working on myself for so many years, 24/7 for the most part, I know progress when I experience it. And this is where MY path is leading me. Thanks again for the input.

sugarbear:
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective! I am also a very spiritual person and have found that at this time, I am ready to shed the need to feel hatred - as I have said, it had it's place in my healing journey, but now is just baggage I no longer profit from. I think that it is the definition of "desiring ill will toward another/others" that really bothers me
(odd aside here - I have looked up the definition for hatred several times over the last few days. EVERY TIME, including 3 times today, when the page opens, my computer freezes up and I have to re-start; I know I have a 'bug' in my computer - I have had some freeze ups in the past few months, but nothing consistent or persistent. But I am not going to even try that search again, as I have had a freeze up every time I have searched this - coincidence? probably; interesting? definitely)
I don't speak that much about my faith or beliefs as I know SO MANY survivors have been so damaged or stung by organized religion and/or the messengers delivering the beliefs.
My own experience that really hurt me emotionally and mentally was when I was first beginning my journey toward healing. I was in my early 20's and went to the church that I had been raised in all my life. We had a new, young minister that seemed so open and accepting. I went to him in private, told my story and was seeking guidance. While telling him what happened, I mentioned that I was gay. He basically listened intently and told me he was going to pray and meditate on this and encouraged me to go home and pray myself and that he would give me some input soon.
The next Sunday arrived and when the minister took the pulpit he mentioned that he was breaking from the scheduled sermon mentioned in the bulletin.
He then started moving from the pulpit, into the audience as he started a diatribe against homosexuality and homosexual acts. He took his new position in the pew directly in front of my mother and myself and RANTED against gays, misquoting the scripture, twisting the message of love into a hate filled, judgmental, "fire & brimstone" condemnation against all who had ever participated in such acts - he even talked of how gays who were molested or raped "got what they deserved" - All the time locking eyes with me and talking directly to me, increasing in volume and anger the longer he talked. I steeled myself and refused to be the "first to blink" - I GLARED back at him until he finally removed himself from the audience and reentered the pulpit to "bless all with love and peace".
Following the service, he positioned himself at the back of the church and as I made my way for the exit he started to approach me - I stopped him in his tracks and rebuked him on the spot. I then informed him and the rest of the church family that I had grown to love so much that I would never darken the doorways of that church as long as he was ministering there.
And I did not. A few months later he was arrested for having molested his two step daughters - age 6 and 8; he tried to use the Bible as a defense, explaining he was "tempted sorely beyond his control". He was sentenced to the max - and then tried to kill himself in the county jail before being moved to the penitentiary. His wife gave her three children up for adoption as she chose to "stand by him" to the end.
So I have looked long and hard at my beliefs - I believe in God and find him in the scripture, in nature and in churches that TRULY understand the total message of unconditional love.
It took me years to heal from that betrayal, but I finally have. And again, the problem is rarely with the message, but the messengers.
This is another subject that is rarely discussed here, due to the raw emotions that it brings up for so many. And I can relate to that. So I thank you for your expression of belief and your understanding of your journey. We all have a path to follow and so often what one needs, another will have no use for.
All my best, and thanks for sharing your views!
Refuse2quit

I believe and am striving toward forgiveness. I think it is the best way to achieve healing. However, I believe in forgive but do not forget. I believe strongly in justice and that if all abusers were tried, convicted, and received long prison sentences there would be less abuse. In fact, I think a crucial step toward forgiveness is holding the abuser accountable for what they've done. I think the lack of justice for victims of sexual abuse definitely effects the ability or desire to forgive.

Very good outlook Twyliah - I never close the door of possibilities in my life, even if they seem highly unlikely to be achievable at this time. And, I doubt that I could ever forget, but I really would not want to. I do go long stretches without thinking about my abuse or abusers, but I have the majority of my memories intact. I can remember now without fear, or feeling stressed, or shame - They are just memories of what was.
Again, I like your outlook - and I wish you the best.
All my best as usual -
Refuse2quit

Thank you Refuse2quit.... I too got so pretty strong replies a few years ago when I posted my thoughts on forgiveness on the boards. So I thought I'd show support as I truly do feel it's important concept for many to consider,I can't and won't say everyone must forgive in oder to heal but it was important for me and worthy of discussion. It seems the word "forgive" itself is a trigger for many. I do believe a time comes where the anger/rage being held begins harming the survivor as we weren't meant to carry anger/rage/hatred in our hearts forever. We are designed to express what we feel and then release it just as toddlers do. They get hurt, angry and express the feelings in the moment, they don't store it like we adults do. It takes energy to store rage inside and it's true that as long as you carry it you keep yourself emotionally connected to the person you hate. I tried to stress the point that "real" forgiveness is impossible until the survivor had done the necessary work including the anger and that can take many, many years. There is no time table but at some point I believe it becomes anger feeding on anger and only harms the person holding it. It differs for each individual how long they need to hold onto the anger but again imo it's not meant to held onto for a lifetime or at least I don't think anyway. I suspect some resist the concept because of how they perceive the word "forgiveness" and ramifications are influenced heavily by the Bible..."turn the other cheek" and all that. It's why I think there needs to be a new word rather than forgiveness. I think there's much misunderstanding on the concept and too many see it as focused on the abuser...and the thought of forgiving the person who damaged and hurt them so just feels offensive and unacceptable, others just aren't through being angry yet and still others after having been so vulnerable feel empowered by the anger...and the suggestion of forgiveness feels like their being asked to give up there power and lets their abuser off the hook all at once or that forgiveness means you now must allow them back into their lives, or meaning it condones what they did etc. It doesn't mean any of those things. .
Many haven't yet worked through their anger/rage and thus are still in the the process and thus are unable to truly forgive. In fact the truth is you "can't" truly forgive until you've done the anger work. I'm talking about after you've completed the process. Still others believe that survivors can fully heal without ever forgiving and remain angry. and if that works for them great....for me, I got tired of carrying around the anger. I'm not about to to suggest what worked best for me is the "only" way to heal or it's right for everyone. It used to be there were a lot of therapists doing anger workshops (I've actually attended one) some use bataca bats... in mine it was a hose and beating phone books. You see very few of these anymore they were found to have minimal impact for most people because the anger was limitless, Anger just seemed to beget more anger and people would get more or less addicted to the discharge work without showing any appreciable positive impact in their lives. Anger is a powerful emotion and is how we express our outrage when we have been wronged or hurt and is the emotion programed into us to be able to access in order to protect oneself. It's been said and I believe true that the opposite of love is not hate/rage/anger....as both indicate emotionally connectedness to the individual albeit through a negative emotion. It makes sense to me that while the anger.rage is a necessary aspect of healing but I think the goal should be to get it out, process and expressed for as long as needed to get the needed closure but at some point letting it go. The opposite of love is apathy not hate or anger. The forgiveness I'm talking about is getting to the point where the person no longer matters...at all...and the closest word on the emotional continuum I can think of is apathy...where you are unwilling to expend ANY further emotion (or thoughts) or energy toward the person. They no longer exist if that's what you choose. For me I had minimal contact with my parents both of which abused me and once I forgave them when I did see them I felt in control and relaxed. . They no longer had the power to hurt or upset me. I saw them for who and what they really were..two pathetic, broken people one a full blown narcissist and other a martyr who lived their whole live unconscious and just reenacted on their children what happened to them. Since I could take or leave them I automatically developed boundaries and limits and felt empowered....this is when I knew I was free. I would talk to them occasionally but it was drama free and on those rare occasions when it wasn't I'd calmly leave or just hang up. The relationships were shallow to be sure and limited but for me, I chose to keep some contact. Others may not. I was surprised by how easily I was to shape their behaviors. I'd turned loose and moved on. I believe all survivors to fully heal must go through the anger of what was done to them and what was taken but I'm saying once processed, felt, expressed and understood there comes a point in time, it becomes less about the abuse and has become a way of life and no longer serves a constructive purpose. Obviously this time line is different for different people. I'm getting too wordy here. My main point is "forgiveness" isn't about the abuser at all.... it's for us the survivors. When one continues holding anger there are potential health consequences while not affecting the abuser at all. I hoped that people would see that as long as we harbor the anger we are continuing to give our abuser(s) space in our life and keeps us connected to them and in doing that's energy kept from those we love and care about. So when the anger no longer serves a purpose it's time to let it go and as I stated it's really more of a message to our abuser that we are unwilling to allow them to possess any part of us, they are banished from our emotional life. We turn that negative loose back out into the universe. We are finally free. It certainly doesn't mean you condone anything, or forget you're just choosing not to carry than negative energy and emotions around with you any more. The forgiveness I'm talking about is solely for ourselves, to free ourselves. For many even most it means ceasing all connection to the person, they no longer exist for you emotionally. This forgiveness requires nothing from the abuser. There is a forgiveness like when it's family member and the person truly takes responsibility, apologizes and makes amends where one can choose to forgive and allow them back into their lives but even in these cases the survivor must go through the healing process first and all the emotions that go with it including the anger before they can forgive even if the abuser takes responsibility. It's complicated, I just know for me my rage toward my parents reached a point where it no longer served a purpose and certainly wasn't hurting them. So I chose to let it go. Once I truly saw them as they were I felt more pity than anger and it helped me see the abuse wasn't about me at all, nothing I did or didn't do had anything to do with what happened. They were reenacting and would have done the same and abused regardless of the personality or characteristics of the child. For so long, I had personalized it Occasionally a new memory will surface and I'll feel that old anger but soon let it go and move on. I dk that I've forgiven in the Biblical sense I just know I rarely think of them (their both deceased now) and when I do I feel very little but when I do it's typically a little sadnesses for getting cheated out of my childhood and what might have been had I been born into a functional family ....and every now and then will actually have one of the few good memories come up and be thankful my parents were just sick and not evil. So many on here had it so much harder than me.

Forgiveness is very controversial as you've seen. All I or you can do is express what worked for us but it's not a one size fits all type of thing and I have no interest or desire to convince anyone they "need" to do what I did. We all have our own path...I'm a live and let live kind of person and don't need to convince anyone of anything. If some or even many disagree with me, it's fine. I did what I believed was best for me, that's all I can do.

I read your email about leaving. I'm sorry to hear that as I think you've been a real asset to the boards. I have no doubt many have benefited from your replies as you're quite knowledgeable and write in an accessible way.But in the end, we must take care of ourselves and if you believe taking a break is best for you then do what you must. Sorry for the drama...like I mentioned I went through a similar thing a few years back when I wrote, in essence, the same thing and quickly learned many didn't agree and felt passionate about it. I like you did some back and forths trying to further clarify what I was saying but soon stopped and let it go. It was like talking politics or religion people believe what they believe....and realized my only mistake was not adding..."for me" or IMO...my first post sounded like I was saying everyone needed to forgive. I don't and didn't believe that but it came across that way and started a shit storm..lol
Good luck in whatever you decide.

reading this thread encouraged me to join this site. I am in the rather unusual position whereby my abuser is still a part of my life. whilst it stopped a long time ago, after a full investigation and a multitude of therapy sessions, it is still something I carry around with me everyday and effects a huge part of my life. However, whilst I cannot forget what happened, I have learnt to, I suppose, forgive to some extent my abuser. we are civil at social events and I can now be in his presence without jumping out of my skin at the slightest movement. it was not a conscious decision, in fact one could argue many of the decisions were taken without my input, but I am now able to live a happy and fulfilled life 90% of the time, including times when we are in the same room. I will never be 100% at ease, I would never allow my children, if I have them one day, to be anywhere near him, but it has made me a stronger person. That said, my abuser was someone very close to my family, and happened over a long period, so maybe this is just my way of retaining some of the norms in which I grew up. I would never presume to tell you to forgive your abuser, just to say its time you did whats right for you. I have my reasons for partially forgiving mine, as long as you can say you did what you needed to in order to be at peace with yourself, then you are making the right decisions.

You can try to forgive when your ready but you will never forget.

im with the others at this point i still hate them and hate them to the core. i hate them and everyone who stood with them. i hate the people who have abandoned me when i needed them most and I hate myself for hating them all. its not on my mind as often, but when i think about it this surge wells up in my chest and i dont know what to do about it. I still cant even figure out if i still believe in god or not. I was raised christian, but im too angry for that. So for me now when someone needs prayers i sent hope and love, bc i have some of that left to give. even with all this hate that little light of love and hope is still there. to be kind when someone needs it. on thing that pisses me off more is as much as i hate them, if they called me and were in desperate need of help (not money or something silly ) but someone to come save them or pick them up form a place where they were hurt, id still do that. id still go get them, or call someone who could. id still hate them in the end, but i cant let some one go wandering around at night calling everyone they can think of for help, and me be the one who hangs up.

And that shows the quality person you are. I, again am not advocating this for everyone, nor for anyone but me. I went through all you have talked about - the rage and hatred welling inside me for what they took, the questioning God for letting it happen and the feeling that I would never truly love or trust myself (or anyone else for that matter) again.
But, ALL of those feelings and reactions are gone. I am at the point that when I think of my abuser's I feel nothing. Some residual disgust at my uncle, more because he was rather loathsome as a person, but in reality, I feel very little toward either of them. And I now know where I stand with myself, with my God and with others. The negativity is just not useful to me any longer. It had it's time and it's place in my life - it has served it's purpose and I have moved past that purpose and am getting on with life. Again, this is simply where I am - for me hatred no longer helps, but instead hurts me. It is not who I am nor what I want in my life.
All my best - use the anger, the rage, the hatred to spur you on to be all you can be IN SPITE of them. That is what motivated me for so many years - if I gave up, they won.
Again - my best.
Refuse2quit

This is obviously a very touchy subject, I believe it is different for everyone. Some feel forgiveness will help them heal, some don't. In the end I don't think it matters if the abuser(s) are forgiven or not as long as the survivor is healing.

For me personally, I was able to forgive my abusers. It took me years to do so with the one from my childhood, and then about a year with the one that happened recently. I won't pretend that I wasn't angry, that I didn't want them to hurt. But after awhile I realized that I was tired of being angry, and I didn't want to wish anything bad on anyone. I was able to find some peace after that.

To me, that doesn't mean what they did was okay. It doesn't mean I want them in my life, to ever speak to them or see them. It was just something I had to do for myself, and I felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulders in the end.

You become the better person and no that your arent the bad person.