I can already tell you what is going to happen with this thread -- the wives will give answers that address their true feelings, and then the other SA's or "experimenters" will bash our responses because they're not logical.

However, I'll go ahead and risk it.

**How does your husbands masturbation hurt you?**
I learned early on that guys need images (either present, or stored) to "get off." And the majority of the time those images aren't going to be of me. Why? Because I'm not fantasy....I'm reality. I hate that. I hate that I'm no longer the enticing, desired one.


**How does your husbands masturbation make you feel?**
Like I'm replaceable. Or that intimacy with me and masturbation alone are on par with each other. I masturbated after our first engagement was broken and got no fulfillment from it. It was boring and lonely. But he would shoo me out of the house, or insist I take a nap, so that he could jack off. Why? He'd rather have me gone than there with him. That hurts.

***If he were open and honest, and even asked your permission, would your feelings be different?***
Not really. Ask permission to go stare at or think about some other woman's body and what he wants to do with it. Hmmm, no thanks. Besides, I'm pretty willing. If he puts in the time showing me love the way I like it, I'm more than happy to do the same back.

***Would you say yes or no?***
I think you can guess the answer.

***Would him asking give you some empathy for his sex appitiate and make you want to take care of his needs or would it irritate you?***
His needs or his wants? I think guys too often confuse the two.

If you're talking about masturbating every day or several times a day, no...that's more of a want. Hopefully a guy is getting regular sex, otherwise, yes, I would have empathy for him. But my husband went 2 months without either (we were separated and he was trying to win me back) and he's still alive.

***Would you react differenty at different times in your cycle?***
Hell ya! Why is this even a question??


Thanks for asking these questions. Too few guys are that willing. Just remember two things: just because my feelings don't line up with your ideas, doesn't mean they're invalid. They're feelings. Secondly, and to add on to that, women will all feel it differently. It's really your wife's feelings that matter.

Hope you find what you need.

I agree whole-heartedly with everything that CaliMommy had to express...Yes it is hurtful to a partner of a Sex Addict...there were many valid thoughts and feelings bought to the surface with this Topic...
It's good to have a women's or partner's of a Sex Addict's point of view to take into consideration...After all, they go through it as well...but from a painful and damaging side.

CaliMommy pretty much said it all, cant think of any better answers.

OK, This is great! MORE MORE!


Now, at this very moment I am very angry at my wife. So I am going to react to your very enlightening comments so as to take this to the next level.

"His needs or his wants? I think guys too often confuse the two."

Sex addicts definitely get the two confused.

I understand the whole concept of fantasy feeding the drive so much that it can not realistically be met by your wife. This is a problem. On the other hand, why is it OK for you to arbitrarily decide that because you are angry or unhappy about something that happened at work sex is out. It is as immature to disregard his sexual needs as it is him to expect you to fill his over indulged cup.

This leads to a very rare but compelling concept. A sex agreement. "We will have sex at least every 3rd day. and alternate initiating, and you can not ask when it is my turn to initiate." At least for a sex addict, this would drastically relieve the fear and anxiety that comes with never knowing when and how it is going to happen.

Why then would something like this be so hard for a woman to agree with?

"Besides, I'm pretty willing. If he puts in the time showing me love the way I like it, I'm more than happy to do the same back."

This is really the key reason that masturbation does not work. It drains the need to woo you. Right? When I can satisfy my phisical urge without you, then I care less to do the work to get you intersted. Right?

So, why do you think it is reasonable to be angry, disrespectful, harsh, name calling, and pithy and your man have to put up with that kind of behavior to prove he loves you? Why not just be nice?

I already know the answer The answer Genesis 3:16. I jsut read Mathew Henry's Commentary. And I always wondered what would have happened if Adam had obeyed and not taken his wife's advice and eaten the apple.

He says," If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and then the dominion would have been no grievance: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy."

So the yoke of sorrow and tears of your husband not meeting your expectations are both from his broken ability to love and be wise, AND your williingness to thward both the devine law, and the sentance passed on by breaking that law.

Let the fur fly!!

Not that I am sure to have enticed a whole new world of rational, I consede on thing. We men do not love well. And one small way I am trying to love my wife is to ask these questions to begin to understand her better. Thats something!

Choose, i appreciate you taking the time to understand the way we process these things. I too hope others here won't be commenting on our feelings, so to justify their own behaviours.

1. H's m has hurt our relationship in any ways. At first it completely shattered all self esteem. Over time with the lies and betrayals it eroded any trust and security i ever felt in him.

2. Really pissed. Not the actual act itself, but the reasoning, the justification, the lies orchastrated and the eventual betrayals just for him to selfishly orgasam. Also pissed at the fact that i now have to be the Boss over his recovery.
I know he has to do it himself, and all that bla bla bla. But ultimately we still have to oversee, not only to make sure things are still on track, but to reassure our selves that he is trying, and maybe build trust again.

3. Open and Honest? Well for my h masturbation leads him to unhealthy places, looking for that ultimate orgasam. He can't just have a quick jerk in the shower. Its a process, the build up and then the ultimate end.
My trust on allowing him to just jerkoff, is just not there, and quite frankly, i am not watching to make sure he ain't being 'good'.
However if he openly and honestly came to me and said he was struggling sexually, well then thats a whole other matter. I will then go out of my way to help him out, this is what a relationship is suppose to be about. Making love and showing your partner how much.

4. Because of the above reasons, i would say no. Solo masturbation for him leads to unhealthy thinking and behaviours, and a selfish act if an alternative(me) is available.

5. I would not be irritated if he had any communication on this matter. Our relationship needs communication on his needs and wants, if i am to have a greater understanding of his struggles. Also by him sharing, it helps build trust again.

6. My 'cycle' may heighten my responses, but i am still a person underneath.

**I would like to also mention, that i have had more than 2 years therapy to get to the sane place that i am today.
Also there are very few women around DS, who can claim to be in recovery with their husband. A good portion of them are barely still in their relationships because their h's haven't stood up and taken responsibility yet. Their responses, would have much more pain and anger.

Thanks again Trina. Will you be my sponsor? ;-) Just kidding.... kinda.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. I have no idea what would happen if I did masturbate again. The last week or two have been very hard for my recovery wise and my SA wiriing is really wrestling with M. The reason is that as my nerves go up because of all the triggers in my current life right now, my wife responds in fear, irritation and anger and the distance begins. This is unfortunately the opposite of what I need. But then again, I also know that there is a disconnect from my desire for sex and my stress..... as a SA. Or is it that I am a man. Not sure where it is coming from yet. I think that it is part of the addictive system because I have not quite replaced my acting out behaviours that served me so well when I needed to deal with stress with other healthy outlets. And my poor wife can not handle sex every day to keep up with my stress driven sex needs.

Now this is a bit irritating because she can handle sex every day when she wants it or when she feels stressed but to take care of me. So how does that work!!! I know let the pasagony reigh down on my head.

So I will try the communication thing and see how it goes. If I get the typical "All you think about is sex." That will be my signal that I need to wait for her to start therapy and then wait 2 years to get a more balanced and udnerstanding response and to keep my sex crazed addict driven needs for sex to myself.... without maturbating, so as not to offend her feminine sensibilities.

Please forgive me for venting. I am just digging a hole because I am so angry right now. I know I will soon regret blasting all this out to the unviverse, but underneith this moreally bankrupt, perverted sex addict shell of a man, I am still a sweet kind loving boy that needs love affirmation and affection without having to work so damnd hard for it. Every once in a while.

My tank is empty today.

Hi Choose,
I think the fact that you are asking these questions is a good sign in your recovery even though it may not feel good right this minute. You must be getting to a higher level.
I don't think that asking permission to masturbate is the right way tot address it. If you were a man who did not struggle with SA, then I don't even think you'd need to think about asking. But since M could become a slippery slope, even your wife's permission won't make it right for you. It would just make your downfall partly her fault and confuse you both and pit you two against each other.

You wonder why women can't just decide to have sex on schedule, or have it when they are upset or hurt since from your point of view the sex itself will help the relationship. I don't agree. You have an itch, you feel that she ought to scratch it. That does not mean that this sex act is going to help your marriage, you are just able to think that because of the warped thinking any addict indulges in when they are jonesing.
How about this. Right after your huge Thanksgiving dinner, what if your wife said, honey, I need you to eat this because if you don't I will and then I will be off my diet and I really need your help to stay on my diet. Would you eat it, even though you were full, and had no desire to eat? Or would you think that she ought to find a way to control her eating that did not involve you doing things you didn't want to, or being blamed?
If your wife agreed to have sex at times when she didn't want to, in order to scratch your itch, that would bring a whole nother issue into your marriage. Maybe until now she still has a healthy attitude about sex. Maybe it is linked with a loving relationship and she could still enjoy that with you, once you get yourself sorted. But if it becomes something that she owes you, that she is obligated to do, or else be guilty of not supporting you, it will change to something else entirely. If she is sometimes not interested in sex now, it could change to not interested in sex any more, period.
Already sex is a ssensitive topic between you two. Already she is coping with her feelings of how your habit makes her feel. If at times she cannot get past the obstacles to opening herself for sex up to you, the person who has hurt her around the topic of sex, that is not a reason to angry at her. You bear some responsibility too.
Sometimes SAs seem to completely lose the ability to see anything outside their own needs. You feel you want this, and you are irritated with her for not giving it to you. You show no empathy for her feelings about it.

Choose I'm sorry this is a stressful time for you, and therefore a dangerous trigger time. Don't worry about venting here, that's what this group is for. You are better to verbalise it, than bottle it up:)

The single biggest thing my h has learnt during recovery is to try and overcome, using sex to relieve his stress. It was recommended by his therapist that he had to reduce the amount of sex he was having. It was daily at the beginnning of recovery, then every two days, and we are currently at every three days, now at the 6 month mark.
It is so much more enjoyable and less of a chore, now that it isn't a have-to event, but a want to one. It has really helped our relationship as well. There are days that he struggles, and this is where the communication helps. Because i am in the loop, i understand more, and then help him.
Our children are 14, 12, & 10, and we run a 7 day a week business, with 4 staff. So i can not be sexually available 24/7. When i say i help him, it does not mean i have sex everytime, i may only to do the masturbating for him.
Truthfully, he has masturbated twice himself, during recovery. Both times i was away from home for a couple of days, and he fretted. Neither time involved porn, but he justified it as helping him get to sleep. So as you can see he is a work in progress when it comes to the justification!

Hey i think your doing okay, and a big round of applause to your wife for hanging in there. You are aware of right and wrong, and i think you are one of the few around here with a real chance of recovery.
My biggest advise is to try and look at ways to deal with triggers, other than sex. Not only will it help you, but also your relationship. I wish you every success.

Hey Choose -

"why is it OK for you to arbitrarily decide that because you are angry or unhappy about something that happened at work sex is out."

I am assuming you are asking a rhetorical question, and my answer to it is...its not. But you shouldn't assumed sex is a given, either.

I think the one thing SA's need to realize is THEY PUT THEIR WIFE IN THE POSITION THEY'RE IN. No wife would willingly throw herself into a pile of shame, pain, betrayal and loneliness. But the husband made decisions that led her to experience these disgustingly real feelings. Instead of seeing our husbands as warriors, we see them as perverts. Harsh, but true. And then we're expected to have SEX with them??? Hell no.

However, a good wife, a strong wife, will seek healing -- both for herself and her marriage. And a good husband, an admittedly weak husband, will seek help. And between hard work and tears, they can hopefully unite again.

"At least for a sex addict, this would drastically relieve the fear and anxiety that comes with never knowing when and how it is going to happen."

Just curious -- are you concerned about her or getting sex?

"So, why do you think it is reasonable to be angry, disrespectful, harsh, name calling, and pithy and your man have to put up with that kind of behavior to prove he loves you?"

Because she's having to deal with you and they countless women and fantasies you forced into her marriage. It takes time and understanding...not bitterness because you abused a gift marriage provides and are still expecting her to be your whore.

ChooseaUsername - I have a ton of respect for you. You've written some amazing posts and given me more insight than most addicts. I know these questions are coming out of a rough patch in your recovery, and I don't intend to belittle it any way. But I do need to stick up for your wife. Your post indicates you still don't understand the magnitude of pain you've put her in. She needs to work on her anger and responses....you guys are living in a circle of failure if she doesn't.

"This is really the key reason that masturbation does not work. It drains the need to woo you. Right? When I can satisfy my phisical urge without you, then I care less to do the work to get you intersted. Right?"

My last comment as I need to get going (it'd be a lot longer otherwise...haha) - - your focus here is still getting the big O. I suggest you write a note and stick it in your car, your wallet, somewhere that asks "How can I connect with my wife today?" That is the essence of marriage, and sex is the ultimate fulfillment of that. Your body was designed to please your wife and her body was designed to please you. Once you get that idea cemented into your head, you can vaguely start to see why the SA is such a horrible disease in a marriage.

I really hope things improve for you soon.

my h masturbation hurt me because he would rather masturbate than to have intimate sex with me. his masturbation made me feel alone, unattractive and not good enough. the secrecy of it was so devastating too. at times he woke me up out of a sound sleep when he was masturbating on the bed right next to me. i would question him about it and he would make all kinds of excuses as to why he would not want to have sex with me. i felt ignored, alone, unloved.

when my h masturbated before i found out he was a sex addict, it didnt' bother me that much because i thought it was a normal, once in a while thing. but the less he was with me and the more secret and deceptive the masturbation became, the worse i felt about everything. there is something about keeping it a secret that exacerbates the pain to me.

my h never asked me to understand his sexual appetite because i dont think he saw it as a sexual appetite and neither did i. i did want to take care of his needs, i wanted him to take care of mine. i crave being with him so that i could feel connected and intimate, but that was not a priority with him. i think if he asked me for help, that would have been huge for me. it would have made me feel like he gave a damn about our relationship and how i felt.

good luck to you in all of this. i know it's a hard road.

Thank you for your encouragement. And direct words. Except the "being my whore" part, that was a bit out of bounds, but maybe I will take it as a reflection of the pain I have caused my wife.

For the last 2 weeks I have been bottoming out regarding my recovery. Pure white nuckling to keep my hands off my )_(&^. I think I have popped my wrist with the rubber band so much that my pea brain has figured out that drinking in images of porn and objectifying women causes pain on my wrist, so I am not really struggling with lust at this point, but it is really trying to address stress from work, and not feeling close to my wife lately that is triggering me.

So, I appreciate your encouragement.

I have written 4 or 5 venting posts, but deleted each of them because they are a bit intimate, but maybe soon.

I just appreciate your feedback. Thanks. Hopefully I can get back to my ol' amaizing insightful self place. I really enjoy that part of myself. The insightful giving part.

Keep working at it Choose, you've done a great job up till now.
Thanks for asking, and i hope we've helped you get some insight to our world.

Remember reduce stress, talk to wife and keep pinging that rubber band.

Now if you've got more to say, that is not for everyones eyes, lock it in your journal for friends only. That way you can reduce who sees it.

All the best.

First of all, I would like to comment, that SA is very, very complex. It is like the books I have read said, a vicious cycle that unless broken will destroy oneself and a marriage, for sure!

Masturbation. I never really thought that masturbation was so complex but I have learned otherwise. I have read and my h (SA in recovery and doing great by the way) has told me that he believes that he was addicted to masturbation. Not the porn---it was the porn that fueled his fantasy world to masturbate and ejaculate and get that "HIGH" we have all heard about from this euphoric state. I believe that it was NOT initially an addiction to porn that came first, but the addiction to masturbation that was ultimately fed by the porn. And from what I have read, this is a definite possibility. I think in my h's situation and probably many other men's situation is similar.

If I could have looked in a crystal ball many years ago, early on in our relationship, we would have seen that our marriage was on the verge of disaster and failure. There were little signs, that now looking back, I knew were there, but could never put my finger on it. One was my h's addiction to STARE at other women. It was my h's staring at other women that I truly believe caused a very cyclic pattern in our relationship....and without even knowing it at the time, caused my h's addiction to strengthen. He would stare, I would be devastated and crushed beyond words, as all I ever wanted was to be adored by my h....ONLY me, not other women. When he would stare (and believe me, let's just say, I was not a dog myself) at other women I felt so alone, so betrayed, so depressed, so sad, so unattractive....I could go on. I felt like my soul had died when I saw this. I remember, literally feeling like the life had just been sucked out of me. His behavior in turn caused me to withdraw emotionally and intimately from him and this in turn caused him to probably look even more. We did the name calling too....it was so immature and so hurtful too. He called me frigid, he pouted when I wouldn't make love, he blamed me for everything wrong in our sexual relationship. This made me retreat even further. This was the cycle of our marriage, for years. Until I found out his SECRET.

I am telling you pieces of my story, CHOOSE, because I see a similar pattern happening in your marriage. You have LOST one another and need to get back to the basics of what drew you together in the first place. It's just the simple things that you forget....like hugging each other when you get home and asking how your day was, or telling one another how much you appreciate what the other one has done, or bringing home a favorite thing of your spouses and surprising them....well, the list goes on. I think you get my point.

I am going to find this article that I read a while back early on in our recovery. It was wonderful. I remember reading it and thinking, if I had only known these simple things years ago, maybe our marriage would have never gotten in the big mess that it was. I will find it and send it to you and for others to read. It will truly open up your eyes.

Good Luck and I hope this little insight has been helpful to you. I get the feeling that your relationship is still salvageable....that there still is hope. My advice to you is, don't give up the fight to hold onto your marriage if you truly love each other.

I realize this is a post primarily for SOs, and I don't want to get too much in the way of good advice being given, but I do have to say that I think it is kind of dangerous to put masturbation and porn in the same category. I think that masturbation can be a hurtful thing if as has been mentioned the man or woman is choosing it over their partner, but I don't think that means that masturbation needs to be totally thrown out. It depends on the individual and the couple. I think in a lot of couple there is nothing threatening about masturbation at all and fantasies are just fantasies, nothing threatening about it. For some SAs I can see it being a problem if it brings them back to porn or cheating, or takes up some ridiculous amount of time. But I guess at some level I feel like that is up to the individual guy and/or couple. I personally don't think it would be reasonable for myself to give it up and after I went through a cold turkey period I think I am able to do it without it triggering porn usage. I think it is useful so I don't have to try to get my wife on a sex schedule, that seems unfair to me. In my case I think some solo stuff has benefits in that if it is done properly it can help me stay away from porn and my wife doesn't have to be called upon to have sex everyday or every other day. However, I can see that their is a difference between my situation and many of yours in that I was always open about this struggle with my wife and for the most part it did not bother her. So she is ok with me going solo, if she weren't that would be a different story, but I guess I can't imagine how that could work out for the best. I think I would end up resentful and distancing because I wasn't allowed to do something that feels natural to me. For me the porn has been the problem, not so much the masturbation. I guess my main point is that this isn't (doesn't have to be) such a black and white issue e.g. the man doesn't have to be the perfect husband OR a total pervert. He can be some of both and if he is being honest with himself then he probably is some of both, maybe just needs to work on the better husband part and focus less on the pervert part.

Today was better. I feel more centered and let me say again that I really appreciate your positive encouragement! IT has been a gift from God the last few days.

There is a theme of betrayal about husbands being attracted to other women in these threads. Here is what I have learned.

First, my wife seems less totally devistated than some of you have expressed, but my behavior about staring at women's breasts until I began recovery was atrosious! When I went to Every Mans Battle the leader said, " we have a gift for you." Passed out some rubber bands. Then said, " So put these on your wrists." To which I replied, " Wheew, that is a releif!" (if your not laughing please read this again.) Anyway, later I realized that it is called aversion therapy.

The chemistry in the brain during orgasm are very powerful endorphines that are actually more intense than doing heroin. This spike of endorphines is what makes masturbation addictive. My experience was that I fantasizd about a single pornographic image I saw when I was about 6 years old. This single image has somewhat defined my sexual desires, acting out behaviors and the behaviors that I get hung up on.

Anyway, I wore the rubber band and dutifully used it for 100 days. Now 6 months in recovery I really am not struggling with lust. Here is the kicker. I am still attracted to women. I am now in the habit of looking away quickly and being concious of doing it.

So that leaves the compulsion to masturbate. I have been very tempted, rationalized and struggling to keep from doing it. A few things are helping this.
1. I am kind of affraid of what might happen if I slip down that ledge.
2. Knowing that it will deminish trust.
3. It does not solve the problem it is intended to solve.

So I am still sober from it today, so even if the same wired cycles of crazy thinking swirl aroud in my head, my behavior is different.

There is one trick we have discovered to help use this endorphine rush to draw my visual mind to my wife. We have sex with the lights on, and my eyes open, when the ejaculation comes I am careful to drink in the vision of my wife's face and body. This I think is a way God has built into men to be attracted to their own wife above all others. What is attractive to society changes every few years because of this same visual adaptability.

So, women, listen up, get over whatever self consiousness you have about having sex in the light and negotiate the open eye thing with your husbands. I can honestly say that I am more attracted to my wife now than I have ever been because of this. And my unfortunate few exposures to other naked women in movies has been so much less intriguing than it has been in the past.

So I agree with you that masturbation is the actual orgasmic chemical that causes the addiction the porn and lustful ojectification has some stimulating chemestry to it, it is far less compelling than those caused by orgasm. So I think porn shores up, entices, and presses people into unrealistic sexual expectations but it is really a doorway not the actual place of addiction. I do not believe that an addiction to porn without masturbation would stand very long before it progresses.