I think it is important to distinguish between making an amends and disclosure. Making amends (as I have been taught) is saying to someone 'I was wrong to have treated you in such or such a way.'

Disclosure is often done under the guidance of a therapist(s) usually yours and your spouses and provides enough information for a spouse to decide if the relationship can be saved; to reconfirm they are not crazy; and to lay the foundation for a fresh start if the relationship can withstand the previous abuse. Disclosures can be extremely difficult for both parties and it is suggested both have a condfident available to meet with afterwards. I have heard there are some instances where the partners go to separate homes or rooms for a day or two to process. Disclosure is followed with a follow meeting with the therapists, addict and spouse to make sure neither of partners are in a bad bad place emotionally.

Thanks for sharing that 2. It's nice to know that some can actually come to a place of honesty. I feel like honesty is far more important to me than the actual behavior. So few ever get to hear the truth.

Born: I'm not sure what the differences are, in this disclosure term and making amends term. I just think of disclosure as telling the truth. Telling the truth doesn't necessarily make amends, but it seems to me to allow the deceived person some information that might help them. Making amends, quite a different matter. I guess if my H came to me and said, I'm sorry I treated you this way, and he defined exactly how he treated me, he would likely have just told me truth. Because I don't really know how he treated me if how he treated me is a secret.

That therapeutic disclosure thing is an interesting concept to me. I do like the idea that the spouse may be able learn about some truth in that context, maybe, or maybe not? But, I can't imagine that sitting there listening to a brief scenario of what may be years of lies and abuse can be digested in a day or two, or a month or two, or even a year or two. I can't imagine either that I would be able to make any decision about whether or not the relationship can be saved, not in a day or two, or even a year or two. Well maybe, maybe sometimes in a second or two.

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can even make a valid determination about a relationship that they know nothing about at that point. And, a meeting with a couple of therapists (strangers) two days later isn't likely to even determine how bad a place someone may be emotionally either. Most often, a spouse goes into shock, and it may well be a long, long time before they recover from that. So, any decisions made in that shock timeframe are likely meaningless anyway.

Telling the truth does not necessarily mean telling every little detail of every little thing. If the truth is that I'm going to a 12 Step group then that is the truth. I don't have to go home and give a report of what happened there.. in fact.. the rule is that 'what goes on in this room stays in this room'.

I do agree that telling the truth is not making amends. My ex was very honest and told the truth as he did this and that, as if he enjoyed telling me about all his escapades. He was actually a bit of an exhibitionist. Telling too much can actually be the opposite of making an amends. It can be a fly in your face to be told that I slipped and was with another guy,, or that I couldn't wait for your attempt at satisfying me and had to mb. The amends is in the behavior, not the words.

So, I do believe in honesty and telling the truth.. but not in giving details that are not helpful to give. Some things do need to be disclosed.. like that I've just been arrested, or the other woman is pregnant.. but those are things that are definitely going to affect the family.

I still maintain that there has to be healthy boundaries in the relationship, and that spouses who have no boundaries are in codependencies that are not healthy, and that needs to be worked on.

X: Thanks for the information on "what happens in this room, stays in this room." My H has been considering a 12-step program. He mentioned it to me. So, should he decide to do that, I'll know what to expect. I think the idea of that...for me...may only a detriment and not a positive. It seems like hanging out with a lot of folks who also have compulsion issues is only a recipe for disaster. And a what happens in the room, stays in the room policy is likely great for him, and maybe dangerous for me. Seems so counterproductive to me. He is seeing a psych now, and I think that's good. I don't expect to hear much of what is shared there. But, a psych isn't "usually" suffering from obsessive/compulsive behavior.

When I asked my H questions, they weren't "very" specific. Or, they didn't seem to me to be anyway. Something in the vein of exactly "what" kind of behavior? Porn usage? Masturbation? Sex chats? Physical contact with others? How frequently? Where? When? So, it was the "scope" of what he was doing, and how dangerous that is to me. Is it just emotional danger? Or is it physical danger? I do think I have the right to know those things. As far as specifics, who cares. That might be far more informative to him and his psych than me. My problem in it is really only addressing the fear of personal damage.

I've told him that for now, I have no additional questions. I think I have enough information to allow me to protect myself. And that's really all that matters to me. As far as the twelve-step thing, from what I've read here, I suspect that I won't be comfortable with that at all. So, maybe, it would be far better for me to leave and go live somewhere else for the duration. I'm pondering that decision now. I want to have had time to think about the repercussions for me, and what I intend to do for myself. That way, he can do whatever it is he thinks he needs to do. And, I can be away from the stress of it. Then, he can let me know the results at some point.

Learning, I disagree this "I think the idea of that...for me...may only a detriment and not a positive." 12 step groups work great in helping people recover their lives. Not just stopping the addiction but to learn how to think better and treat others with love and understanding. Everything about the group is to benefit all involved. You should check out an open Al-Anon meeting. This will help you understand the true nature of recovery. YOUR HUSBAND'S PROGRAM, IF HE WORKS IT, WILL GIVE YOU AND HIM AND GREATER LOVE FOR EACH. Have faith that all will be well. Healing is for both you.

2: Thanks for your input. I may go to see one, just to see one. But, anything more that is fostered in any secrecy seems absolutely counter-productive for me. I feel like the greatest detriment of these behaviors as they affect me and my relationship with my H is the lies, manipulation, subtrofuge and secrecy involved in it. So, when anyone suggests "what happens in the room, stays in the room" it doesn't feel like anything positive to me. More secrecy? More lies? More hiding? And how do you see that as beneficial to the spouse?

x: You suggested, " I still maintain that there has to be healthy boundaries in the relationship, and that spouses who have no boundaries are in codependencies that are not healthy, and that needs to be worked on. " What do you think are healthy boundaries in the relationship? I do have some boundaries, though I wonder sometimes what good they do? One of them, is I expect to hear the truth. I see no reason whatsoever for lies any time at all. I expect to receive information on what he is doing so that I can protect myself from harm. So, for him to suggest to me "what happens in the room, stays in the room" induces me to feel that lies and secrecy still prevail. And, as long as they do, I can see no way to have any positive interactions with him at all. Which of course means, there is no need to talk to him. What could I possibly talk about that would be beneficial if I know that he relies on secrecy?

2: A question...does it seem like you and your wife even discuss how she feels in regard to this issue? Is she not disturbed about it at all?

2: Another question....and what is it that I do while he is figuring out what it is he should do? I don't trust him anymore. He has lied so much. I don't even know what to say to him anymore. I don't even know how to react to him anymore. I don't know what I can even believe about him anymore. I think I just feel the need to be away from him. I don't want to hurt him. I don't want him hurting me. And yet, isn't that all there is with this stuff...more hurt...more pain...more lies...more life lost to never be reclaimed? And, I see no way at all that anymore secrecy on any level whatsoever will have any positive impact or outcome. I feel like if he can't answer any questions I have, then there is no longer any need to talk. And, even if he does, I don't know that I could believe a word he said.

Maybe that is the ultimate outcome of far too many lies to protect his behavior. Eventually, he is the only one that knows what he really feels, really does, or really matters.

I'm glad you're being honest about what you think and feel.

I'm not sure you understand about boundaries, cuz the example you gave of expecting truth is not really a boundary. It is a reasonable expectation but it's not a boundary.

A boundary lays out the difference between who you are and who I am. Many of us do not have a healthy sense of self. I was not allowed to have a self in my family of origin.. my father could come into any room I was in at any time, including the bathroom. I was not allowed to have my own opinions, thoughts, or style, but was constantly expected to just agree with him, or at least to act like I did,, no dissention allowed. I was not allowed to show anger at anything he did.. he was always 'right'.

There is a saying for people in relationships. "I can't give my self if I don't have a self." There is no 'we' if there is no 'me'.

Boundaries include some privacy. Being 'private' bothers you because you are afraid that things would be out of your control and go to hell then. We know that trust is an issue, but sometimes there are unreasonable expectations involved in 'earning' trust, and part of trust is not being paranoid. At some point we have to 'let go'.

If you really feel that anxious, and frightened for your safety that you have no trust at all, even about letting him participate in private 12 Step meetings,, then maybe you are wise in considering taking a break for a bit. Some couples do. You're right that what each of you does affects the other in some way,, changes the dynamics of the relationship, and maybe you both need some space for a bit.

I have to say that before I started doing the Steps I was trying to control people, places and things too,, and that comes from insecurity. I was very afraid to 'let go',, but Steps 1, 2 and 3 come together.. we 'let go and let God', trusting in our Higher Power.

I still don't trust people, places or things,, as I have PTSD also, and really can't trust. I've been through a lot,, I was molested at 3 and in a foster home, and a lot. but I have come to trust God as I understand God.

Learning, first let me answer your question about my wife. When I come home from my meeting, she will ask "how was the meeting?' I tell her what I shared. I never tell her what anyone else says...ever! I also tell her the topic of discussion. She is okay with that. She sees the changes I've made and more importantly sees feel the changes and has no need to press me. I tell her that those significant changes came because of my work in the meeting and OUTSIDE the meeting. Working the steps for me is not only done at a meeting.

Let me address the "what goes on in the room stays in the room". AA was founded by a prominent doctor and successful business man. When they started the meetings they wanted to be able to go somewhere and talk about their problems and NOT have them broadcast to the public. Drunkenness was highly looked down upon at the time. The spirit of anonymity is the key foundation that all successful 12 step groups are based upon. It is how trust was established so that they could talk and not fear judgment or reprisals.

Let's say for example that you were a drug addict and a high profile family. You would want people to know that you were going to a recovery program? It is not so much shameful anymore but the point is you don't want dirty laundry aired out in the open. The press is ripe with rumors.

I am truly sorry your husband lies. That is hard to handle and I feel for you. One thing about MY recovery is being honest. In fact, the first step is all about honesty.

The reason I suggested to you that you go AL-ANON is that you will find women there who have been lied to, used and abused who HAVE RECOVERED! There is hope. YOU NEED TO HEAL MORE THAN YOUR HUSBAND DOES. You are the one who did nothing wrong and was betrayed. Therapy helps to a certain point..at least that's how it is with me., but there's more...much more. You need support from women who have been exactly where you are right now. I always tell people in my meeting to NOT go this alone and that goes for the families as well. This online group helps, but you need to get with someone, have lunch or go for a walk with, that can identify with YOU! Someone's shoulder to cry or vent on, bounce ideas off of. Your husband has a program its time you get one too.

Thanks for your sincere comments. I think I have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to trust again, there were far too many lies for far too long for that to ever occur now. I need to release my H and myself from this relationship. I hope he finds peace, because I must. Too much time flying by to be any good for either of us. Sometimes, there is just no way to repair the damage that occurs. So, time to suck it up and just let him know, I give.

x: I do have to say that all of this has remained out of my control and I'm the first to admit it. And, I know there is nothing I can do about it. I can only do what is best for me now. I can't live peacefully with a person I can't trust, so, I have to take care of myself. It isn't good to live in these circumstances. Not good for me. Not good for him. Not good for anybody. I have hesitated to call it quits. He always cries and gets so emotional. And, I have the propensity to feel empathy. That's not good either. So, I'll have to quash that now, and refuse to see or talk to him again. That will be better for me and for him. 35 years, down the dark hole. Sickening.

2: Thank you for your commentary. I've survived this kind of thing for all my adult life, and I will survive it again. I can't depend on some other person to stand for me, no therapist, no other person in distress, no one at all. That seems to me like asking a drowning person for a lift. How can they help me? They can't even help themselves.

I feel like no one can live my life, make my choices, or carry on. I have to do that. I think that x is right in some ways though a bit off in others where I'm concerned. I don not thing that my H is me, or I him. We are very different people. Likely far too different to ever meet in the middle again. I think at this point I do need space. I need to be alone now.

I don't think that I can be ok with him here. Having him here professing his love and honesty after the most recent six years of effort is just too much. I struggled so much six years ago with whether or not it was even worth the effort to try and trust him again, even on the most minimal level. I agonized for a long time over whether or not it was even wise to try. I made that decision, so I'll live with it. Apparently, it wasn't a good one. He returned to his previous behaviors, including lying straight to my face. I'll never understand how another person can do that. It feels sometimes to me like the most magnificent of thefts, the theft of almost an entire lifetime. 35 years, as worthless as a pile of ash. Profound!

I had recently, in the last year or so, gotten to where I could at least enjoy my life for the most part. I felt peace most everyday, and a quiet serenity I learned to love. I felt a rather shaky kind of trust. I didn't feel any need to check on him or anything like that. I knew that things weren't as they were long ago. But then, I didn't expect that they could ever be after so many times betrayed by the same person.

Only to find that once again, he betrayed me. That seems to always initiate a struggle inside me of having empathy with him, or taking care of myself. I can't do both. He needs to leave now and let me get on with my life. He will likely do better without me now. And, I'm sure that I'll do better without the stress of having him around. What a profound loss. I'll have to start doing a whole lot of fun things to make up for all of that.