I think that apologies are in order...and it's not by me saying to my elder...'hey man..I'm sorry you looked out for me and the rest of us and got slammed for it" Maybe and I'm sorry that I didn't trust my elders instinct. And elder that I have seen, felt , hugged . In favor of a stranger and a redflagged deviant stranger at that.

I think we all know that there are those out there who have our founder in their sights....we all KNOW and believe that. We all support and truly care for him, his well being, his family...People have claimed that his family ''is like family" . So I don't understand why anyone here wouldn't want to 'given recent events here on RAR' err on the side of caution ESPECIALLY if one of our beloved long term elder is here, watching out for us. This particular Long term elder was the first to welcome me to the forum in a private message. The first to give me a Hug. The first person to stand up for our founder and feel his hurt and his families pain....only to be given shit for holding down the fort.

I'm sorry but there are those of us that take the term FAMILY seriously enough to know....we got to stick together or else we will fall apart. We don't have to like eacht other all the time...or none of the time but we do owe it to each other to take our FAMILY, OUR TRIBE and hold them with a tender hand.

That is not saying our FAMILY OR TRIBE is closed...we are open to everyone who behaves in a respectful manner. Oh and coming from a rather large family, upper double digits to give you and idea...YES in a FAMILY you EARN your spot...by your behavior...you EARN the right to be called brother or sister...WE Have no unconditional love that a parent has for their child....we HAVE LOVE but if you shit on it....LOOK out...cuz thats just NOT COOL and its NOT GOING to brushed under the rug. Redemption not withstanding, but redemption cannot come if the offense isn't recognized.....

No attack or attitude here except the desire to ask a few respectful questions in order to clarify some things. Was it just possible that the young man in question could have been named Matt? It is, after all, a common enough name. Was it also just possible that he was from our founder's home city? I'm pretty sure there is more than one Matt there. And was it just as possible that maybe he didn't have the social skills to address our group in a manner in which we felt comfortable? He listed his age as 28 and I'm 44 and still have problems socially more often than I'd like. I feel these were all possibilities...whether likely or not. Now, the next questions...nothing here said in anger or trying to find fault...Was it just possible that the responses being worded so adversarially seemed violent and abusive? Could they have been out of line and worded better? Would the person have been accepted more readily had they been listed as a woman? I believe the answer to all of these questions could be yes. From what I could see from the posted responses to his post; if I had been some new person stumbling onto this particular public discussion, it looked like a bruised and bleeding person dropped into a tank full of hungry sharks...metaphorically speaking, and no slur meant...just an example. Is this the image we want to give those coming here for the first time? I really don't believe anyone here really does...because I honestly feel that if this is how we're going to start responding to everyone who doesn't come across in just the right manner, we're going to get a reputation for being a bunch of bigoted bitches, and I'm sure nobody here wants to see that. I agree with Matt A that we need to be vigilant and protect ourselves...by WATCHING those who seem suspicious. I'm just concerned that "protect" might turn into "attack" with little or no provocation. Once again, I'm simply trying to discuss a very touchy subject in an adult and rational manner.

Hey Wasit, thanks for drawing it down a notch...for a minute. Sadly, though it turned out this "young man' sent provocative hugs to members of RAR that had their photos up. Sadly for all of us he turned out to be what our elder saw in his initial post. Sadly she had to responde in a way that we normally never have to see her respond.

What isn't sad, but infuriating (not at you Wasit, not at you) was to watch her get her ass handed to her for keeping watch over RAR. To Watch her get her post censored (which I never got to read) when she tried to explain herself...I'm guessing since I never got to see it. I would have loved to know...no I would have loved to LEARN what she saw in that post that caused her to react sooooo out of character. I know her and she doesn't have it in her to 'attack' anyone. But I suspect and she SHOWED me what she will do for our Founder, and her TRIBE and its sad that she had to be censored for it.

I have said this before; I don't envy Matt at all for the position he finds himself in. He's in a tough spot. I have an immense respect for all that he and Tonya go through to keep us afloat. Personally I am more than willing to what I need to to keep RAR the place where we can all find peace and comfort. Even if we don't get along with every member, we are still comrades in our healing...and for that my respect is always there.

Peace

Hey Wasit, I'm glad you jumped in. I think its good that we keep this as a discussion about the unity of our tribe and not an arguement between people that might not get along.
I feel like people don't really understand the full extent of what this guy pulled today. I am not going to post the things he said to me privately for fear that it could trigger people. However, I will say that peoples' fears were validated, and should have been listened to and respected in a caring manner. I don't necessarily think that people shouldnt have welcomed him, if certain people didn't have the gumption to speak up, thats fine, we have enough of those people around to do that for many people.

However, to be attacked for listening to internal red flags is just plain wrong in my opinion. Not only do we have that responsibility to protect each other, but we have it to protect ourselves. And when we are attacked for putting up our natural and nuerological red flags, that can do much more damage that we realize, i think. To make people feel stupid, or attacked for listening to those warning signs can potentially keep anyone from listening to those in the future when their immediate well being is tested.

To address the gender issue, YES if a woman had come onto RAR and posted exactly what that person posted...yes, I would have had the same gut feeling, but for different reasons probably. But still, the same reactions and hesitations. I know I would have, because it has happened on RAR before, and I've had those reactions. I don't want to make it about gender, because it wasn't about gender. Social skills or no social skills, that was not the kind of person that would be healthy for any of us to be around. Some peoples inner warning switches are more sensitive, and in this case proved to be correct. We can't publically flame them for those reactions.

I wish like hell that we could trust every person coming into RAR to treat us with respect, and to treat us as human beings, but we can't. I would rather be safe than sorry. And today, it turned out as both. But only because I started to feel guilty about my hesitancy and contacted this person to apologize. I felt guilty because of attacks by my tribe. I want to be clear, that this person was creepy from the get-go. I don't think we have ANY obligation to open our arms up to strangers that come onto RAR if it makes us feel "weird" or our flags go up. But, then again, thats just my opinion.

So, is Matt proposing an attitude of "innocent until proven guilty"? Even if we decide to be a little more guarded until we know that a new member is safe?

For the record I do think that Leitha's instincts have often proved to be sound when it comes to spotting people who are up to no good.
But without knowing for sure, I also thought it was just about possible that someone might have found his way onto the RAR site via a search for support services in his area. (I've never tried googling for rape therapy in the Oklahoma area myself, but I'd imagine there's not much else out there - especially for men.)

I've got one other thing to say - even if we suspect that someone is on the group to stir up trouble (and it's sure to happen from time to time), responding with anger is probably only giving them exactly what they want. I think an attitude of polite caution will be much more effective, at least until we know a little more about the person and their intentions. After all it won't take long for the real trouble-makers too show their hand.

Oh, and for the record, I don't believe that anything this person was doing/saying today had anything to do with Matt, or any of his situations currently. I think it was a sick perverted person who thought RAR sounded like a fun playground of "damaged bitches" (his words not mine) that he could hang out around.

"Social skills or no social skills, that was not the kind of person that would be healthy for any of us to be around." Are we all supposed to be healthy here, SB? As I pointed out in my previous post, I still have social problems and lack certain skills. Please keep in mind, when all the attacking came down, we didn't know for absolute certain what kind of person we were dealing with...the call could have gone the other way. Just my opinion as well.

"I've got one other thing to say - even if we suspect that someone is on the group to stir up trouble (and it's sure to happen from time to time), responding with anger is probably only giving them exactly what they want. I think an attitude of polite caution will be much more effective, at least until we know a little more about the person and their intentions. After all it won't take long for the real trouble-makers to show their hand."

Phoenix, I couldn't agree more.

I never proposed that we all have to be healthy individuals. However, I do think that some people have a certain level of "unhealthiness" that should not be spread to other people via contact with them.
Who you friend or don't friend is a personal choice, but for me, there ARE definately people on DS that are as unhealthy and unstable as you can get, and I would never choose to associate myself with people like that for my own well being.

I think when someone puts in their "about me" section that they have "too many problems to count"...yeahhhh personally, I'M going to stay away from that person. What benefit would having contact with a person like that provide for any of us here, looking to heal?

I didn't initially come here for anyone's healing but my own...did anyone else here? Not trying to start a fight, just curious. And I just recently made a list of things I'm dealing with...had to shorten it in order to make it reasonable for my journal and took only the most pressing, but the original was a long list and could still be added to. I'm truly glad you don't have that many issues to deal with, SB...really and truly, because life gets to be a real bitch when a bunch tackle you all at once. And contact with "a person like" that would help them, and maybe me, and maybe even several others in the long run...if they're given the chance to heal as well. Reaching out involves risk...sometimes the risk of getting hurt, slapped down, or betrayed...I've experienced all of these in the past and still continue to reach out. Why? Because the victories are worth so very much more than the risk and the past hurts. Please note, this was said in a calm voice, no sarcasm or attitude...just matter-of-fact statements.

Thank you for your concern about a certain number of issues I may or may not have wasit, however my point was not about the number of issues this person may be dealing with but the "poor pitiful me" act that is so commonly used as bait for people with good intentions looking to "help"

I'll freely admit that I lack social skills. I have a lot of issues. In fact, I am pretty damn fucked up. But I don't think I caused anyone's red flags to go up when I came here and posted for the first time --- and the reason had nothing to do with my gender. I've not contacted people with disturbing messages. I don't think we are a bunch of "damaged bitches". I came here because I am desperate to make the pain stop. OK, so I've had to be dragged kicking and screaming to wanting to make actual progress through rape trauma. I feel like I am the newbie who is way behind everyone else. But I am not here with a hidden agenda.

We can all wonder about what if some nice guy came in and posted the same exact thing. I don't think Mr. Nice Guy Rape Victim would post the exact same thing. We can wonder all sorts of what-if's --- what if everyone who had concerns was wrong? The point is that they had concerns because those concerns were justified.

I came in here like some sort of basket case, ranting and raving about "That Damn Book". Before that, I'd sent some awful email to Matt that I've tried to forget. I wasn't at all healthy. I'm still not. But, if I posed a danger to the group, I'm sure that Leitha and Laura and Kardy and Finalytime and others would have sounded the alarm by now.

Should I go crazy tomorrow and become some sort of toxic, dangerous individual, I am confident that all of you would be protected...and that people would be working behind the scenes to get me the help I needed.

Whew... ...now this is purely selfish and sounds a little bad (for Matt A) but can I just say how happy I was to read that I wasnt the only one to send an "awful message to Matt". (Sorry again Matt) . So that makes me feel even a little more respect for the spot he's in trying to keep RAR as safe as they humanly can. It makes me respect all the administrators even more for having to make the call to do that job for me and all of us.

I remember on guy in particular....a while back, before the retreat that came on here, and Nily, one of the administrators came out with guns blazing and I thought (to myself) "OMG!!!! Was that really necessary?" Then as time went on it proved to be a perfect reaction for this guy....His own words outed his intent here later. Well at the retreat I got to meet Nily, and she's TINY, this little soft voiced pixie, who showed me, WE have to take charge of inappropriateness. swiftly and harshly as these people are only here to hurt us. A survivor she is...Thanks for that Nily. Dare I say role model....I guess that is why only certain individuals on RAR are administrators as they have earned respect by those experiences, that they can pass onto us to teach us how to spot a potentially unsafe person.

So in the event that we are mistaken....well I would hope that person could look at the title of the group, understand we all have been victimized in the past, have trust issues, and hold all of us with a tender hand as we would do the same for each other. Forgiveness is a an amazing thing...forgiveness does not have to mean total acceptance at the moment of entry to the group. I may be alone in this and thank you all ahead of time for tolerating this in me. You all have shown me where I stand in your hearts and I thank you for that

Peace