Slaying in war I believe is bravery...facing death ect. Not necessarily courageous. The military relies on the courageousness of soldiers because something happens to them and they do anything to protect the other soldiers they are with. I read this somewhere.

I believe people do selfless act of courage all the time; sometimes the payoff is just a feeling of being one with the world and knowing right from wrong.

OKAY specific example. The movie "The Insider" revealed how the reporter had given his word to the whistleblower who then endured death threats and family fallout for going public. Then ABC (or whatever) 60 minutes is part of corporate said they wouldn't allow the segment to air. Everyone went along because airing the show would jeopardize some corporate move, even the other journalist decided to go along with the pull to be loyal to corporate. The journalist who showed courage said he wouldn't agree...it does get aired due to his work behind the scenes. But he also walked at the end and left his job there and says just seeing others not being courageous was too much for him to bear. Yes he had a strong moral base that was to the whistle blower his word and to public health. The others thought their moral base was to protect 60 minutes network and their allegiance; even if that network was making decisions against exposing evil that they could expose.

Sleep to dream: I think you are right there has to be an idea of right or wrong. But that's what someone blowing up an abortion clinic thinks they know right. So does the people who fight for abortion right's laws.

Is there something about courage that makes it clear what is truly right ...

I watched a show about a rapist. A fashion designer. His assistant interview and lied for him and supported him...her eyes in the interview were dull and posture was weak. Later she came to her senses and re interviewed telling the truth... her eyes with brighter with light and her posture more vibrant.

That's more about truth than courage.

Hmmm still don't know what's courage again!!!!

I agree with Laura....morality & courage go hand in hand. It is honorable.

But what about say a moral person who say would not rape.

However that same moral person doesn't help a friend when raped.

Where's the courage?

If a person wouldn't help a friend who had been raped, they are not a moral person. Therefore courage wouldn't even be a question.

There is none, I think that's the point. But while I entertain Laura's believe that morality cannot exist with out courage I have to stick to the idea that courage cannot exist without some kind of morality. Ones person's morality is not anothers and if we get hung up on only our thinking of what morality is we might be losing sight of the bigger picture. My morality is different than Laura's even though we share the same faith. I have to ask....how interconnected is morality and faith and how do they effect courageousness? I mean there are several very moral people that I have interacted with on this board alone who have no organized faith or God that they believe in..I wonder what we could make of that?

So where courage and morality meet...BING something good happens

That couldn't happen with just courage or morality alone

*I do believe there are people that do selfless acts of courage all the time, sometimes the payoff is just a feeling of being one with the world and knowing right from wrong* Catroot

Precisely my point. I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly SELFLESS act. Everyone that I have tried to think of has a benefit and as Catroot so beautifully explained...sometimes the pay off is......

Well, but two things make that complicated. First, nobody addressed my many examples of acts that take courage but require no morality (unless we want to split semantic hairs and claim a difference between courage and bravery, which I don't). Second, Judy makes a good point about people who are moral without being religious. I have friends and associates who are strictly atheist, and are (not "but are") very moral.

I reiterate: there CAN be courage without morality. There CANNOT be morality without courage.

I think there are plenty of people who do selfless things, and it totally screws their life up, and they are miserable for it til the day they die. Selfless acts don't always accomopany a feeling of "aww that makes me feel all tingly inside." sometimes the feeling is "G*DDAMNIT THIS SUCKS/HURTS/IS AWFUL".

Amen Matt. (P.S. I liked your examples) lol

I don't know ...what does it take to be moral?

What are examples of being moral?

Examples of being moral? Well, that's almost too broad to even come up with concrete examples!

NOT striking back against someone who has injured or hurt you
Giving up what you want so that others can have what they need
Not cheating, stealing, using others, injuring others, not deceiving others...

There are so many examples of "being moral".

But giving up what you need so others could have what they want would be bad. (this just struck a strange cord for me)

Taking what other's need so one could have what they want ... not moral. Wall Street!!! Greed

Is being moral ... caring.

No......I said, "Giving up what YOU WANT, so that others can have what THEY NEED."

The other way around, what you said, would be immoral.

But Matt is saying that morality takes action to make it credible. Or demonstrated refrain from injuring someone or something.

So action to either help make something better...

or inaction to not make something worse.