Interesting question, although to be honest maybe this isn't so much about men and women being really that different after all. I've seen plenty of young men go in for self-harming behaviour as well, and there's also plenty of men around who have fallen to the bottom of the food chain in society - yes women are still more vulnerable to ending up in that place, but it's far from exclusive.

I also think some of my male friends on the biker scene are probably more 'feminist' and supportive in their own way than a lot of my female friends; I can handle a few off-colour jokes as long as I'm learning how to service my car for myself :)

So really, I'd say it's all of society that has to change - maybe we just need to get past the idea that everyone has to keep competing for their 'place' on the pecking order, and accept that playing along with that game only benefits the elite few at the top. Easier said than done, I know ...................

As for how to help build up a client's self-confidence in a non-creepy way, I think the important thing is to just keep it honest and simple as and when it comes up in a session - my counsellor can point out to me during a discussion that I obviously care a lot about certain of my friends, or that I seem to get very passionate about my writing, for example. To me, something spontaneous like that just seems much more plausible than counsellors who come out with something that sounds too rehearsed.

Just my thoughts, it'll be interesting to see where this thread goes.

Inner Strength of survivors?? hm. well i guess i see it in women who are flat on their backs but still fighting. i see the persistance in NOT dying, even though some of us feel like we want to sometimes. we fight silently. this is a horrible comparison to use and in no way am i comparing us to dogs!! (altho i dearly love my dog)..
but its like that whistle that only hunting dogs can hear, too high pitched for human ears. or when a blind person can hear someone coming from a long distance away...
we recognize each other through a sixth sense i think.
mens and women's struggles...wouldn't be so different if we didn't live in a society where it was wrong for men to feel used for their bodies, or feel disgusting because a woman made some comment about him in a sexual way.
women fight silently because they are afraid to be heard by the men and men fight loudly because they know that ultimately they have a sense of power about them. i don't know now i'm rambling about this one and i'll have to think more about it.

yeah my father always thought i could do better/ be better, stronger. i think our strengths aren't seen because men don't value them. they don't see the importance of being a strong woman! neither do most women, unless they belong to this tribe. they don't see what being strong and affectionate at the same time can do for a woman.

someone else remarking on my strengths...I guess it depends on the guy. i'll be honest though, i get suspicious a lot, but sometimes theres someone who looks so strong into your eyes and there is no sexual desire there, just pure care for a human being, and says something and those are among the few times in my life i've REALLY felt alive. like i was noticed for something.

qualities~ i wish others would notice that i was SMART. or that i have a FUTURE doing something that will impact the world. my COMPASSION FOR OTHERS. and my FAITH IN HUMANITY. my WILL POWER and my HOPE.

as for the last one...don't act awkward saying it, those are pick up lines...and don't be afraid to look her in the eyes, even though sometimes complimenting others is a bit intimidating eye to eye. and (if the situation allows) before or after you compliment her, perhaps throw in your wife or the word "wife" so she realizes thats where your thoughts still are. that would personally make ME feel a ton better if a compliment did rub me the wrong way?

1) I see the inner strength of survivors as a spirit of self-recognition, a non-defeatist attitude. An overwhelming attitude of "I survived for a reason". I see survivors seeking that reason out, not waiting for it to land in their laps. I see survivors recognizing that it is hard work, and not luck that brings them to this day. Their reason for claiming survivorhood is not an act of coincidence, it is a steadfast demand of themselves to overcome, to beat the thing that attacked them at it's core.

I believe those strenghts are apparent in women because that kind of strength flies in the face of the demure debutante sitting in the shade being waited on by suitors....women survivors ARE feminine, and we are 'ladylike' and kind! What we are also, is positive, purposed, focused, and fearless. We are accustomed to hurdles and barriers, they aren't hindrances...they are challenges. Men [not to be sterotypical], are accustomed to logical approaches to logical situations. The world of black-and-white, of literal thinking. Men approach problems with an attitude of simplicity. It is or it isn't, I can or I can't. Kind of a try it once and if it doesn't work....I can replace it. That is not the soul of a survivor. A survivor knows it probably WON'T work out the first time....a survivor has already undertaken Plan B.

2) Again [not to be stereotypical] men tend to WANT to be protectors, fixers, the come-to person in the family. They tend to appreciate somewhat the 'helplessness' of the 'weaker sex'. They also tend to be threatened if the 'weaker sex' isn't. I have suffered the 'ostrich mentality' when it comes to my strengths. My father gave me little to no thought. My husband, as loving and giving and supportive as he is, tends to 'value' me for attributes other than inner strength. For instance, when I was being discharged from the PTSD treatment, he was asked to name three things about me that he found important....1) "Her ability to love others....to love everybody, she just sees the good stuff" 2) "She's kind. 3) She takes good care of her family. None of what I would love to be valued for was mentioned. This list could have been written by anyone about anyone, maybe true, but not significant to me.
Why? Because to see the inner strengths I do possess, he'd have to search deeper, to think about me, not as his 'little woman', but as A woman, a professional, an equal.

3) When a man remarks on my strengths I tend to feel he wants something. That simply has been my experience.

4) The qualities I wish were noticed more often are the ones that point to my survivorhood. My will to survive, everyday. My sensibility about the world and my place in it. My deep concern for the ones in this world who suffer, the abused, poverty-stricken, the broken people who see no way out. I want my husband to see me as capable, creative, honest, God-fearing, strong of values. I want him to see I survived the horrendous acts of three vile people, and I didn't do it without much hard work. I want him to applaud the fact that I walk out of our home everyday, into an uncertain world, and I hold my head up.

5) As for appropriate ways for you to assure women of their worth without being phony, or creepy, or making them nervous....this was the easiest one of all to answer. Be YOU. I believe you already do this everyday. I believe you have an intuitive way of reading a person and knowing where the boundaries are. I believe that if you state your intentions as you do on DS, there is no way a woman will feel anything but your genuine appraisal of who you see. It may not be who she sees, and I have said it before, as a therapist you see potential...tell her that. Tell her that you simply wish to help her see herself as the person she has the potential to become.
Like you said, some women are not at the place where healing is possible, but, someday she will remember the words. Someday, they'll make a diference.

If I was the first one to respond to this, it's just because I happened to post right ahead of it...LOL

I appreciate these answers. Some of them, however, force me to abide by the limits I feel but want to overcome. For example, I want to communicate to these amazing people that I do love them, that they matter to me, that they amaze me--and let I see it verified once again that these words from a male feel suspicious to some.

I notice, though, that the issue of eye contact seems to come up several times. What is it about eye contact that punctuates a message of love and support?

One other question: do survivors ever outgrow the need for this kind of support? At some point does it stop being a rare treasure and become a routine, a cliche, that she (the survivor) can and will let slip through her fingers because they have served their purpose? Or is it timeless?

The need is timeless when the 'gift' is genuine. The eyes, windows to the soul, reveal that steady, direct proof of honesty and that the feeling is heartfelt. Alot of blinking and looking away is like saying you know what I want to hear.

As for feeling suspicious....you don't need to be concerned. The broadness of the scope of men we encounter varies for each of us. If you are looking for the 'thing' that causes me to be suspicious. If you want to avoid that, then, I'd say this. A man who is quickly 'familiar' with me, like he 'knows' me, but he doesn't....I'm suspicious. A man who uses profanity regardless of my presence, makes me suspicious. A man who winks, innocently or not, makes me suspicious. A beer drinker makes me suspicious. A man who is instantly interested in details about me or my life, makes me suspicious.

When I first met my current therapist, I hadn't read RAR, but I knew what I wanted. If he had jumped immediately to HIS agenda, I'd have been put off. If his agenda involved the details of my rape, I'd be suspicious. If he laid his arm across my shoulders as I was leaving, or had touched me in any way, I'd be suspicios.

I had a gynecologist once that I saw only once because while he was talking to me, after the exam, he kept his hand on my thigh. I was suspicious. I got copies of his notes and he had described me as "This is a 23 year old attractive caucasian female...." Inappropriate description, made me suspicious. A Neurologist described me as "much younger than her stated age..." again, inappropriate.

I need friendliness and a sense I can say anything and it is protected. I also need to know he hears what I say, remembers what I've said...As for his appreciation of me as a person and as a client who is working hard, I love for him to recognize that I have worked hard toward something. I crave approval from anyone. But, I don't need fluff or words of praise that aren't heartfelt.

Empowered, some of the greatest praise and most heartfelt appreciation I have received of late came from you....the post where you called us amazing women.

If you are really concerned with your particular group, let them know in advance, that from time to time you are overwhelmed by their strenght and ability, and that from time to time, you need to say it. Offer them the opportunity to tell you what would make them uncomfortable.

It speaks volumes about you that you are concerned about the end result...of praise.
God bless you.

Mockingbird, thank you. You said EXACTLY what I needed to hear. It's not rare for people to move me to tears of sadness with this work, but it's rare to be moved to tears of happiness. But you did it.

I'll have to work a long time to explain why, so let me spend a while this afternoon working on a journal about it. But it actually didn't have anything to do with overcoming feelings of suspicion or alienation at all; it has to do with the way Time is our teacher. I'll explain later.

Tears of happiness, those are good. I'm glad.

This is interesting. I'll have to get back to you on this.

I know you plan to journal about this, but there is something else regarding the final lines you wrote; your concern about a survivor "outgrowing" the need for support, the "rare treasure" becoming routine or cliche. That a survivor may finally let it slip through her fingers once the purpose is served. You asked is it "timeless".

I cannot speak for everyone, for each survivor. But, there is a special bond we form when wounded. When our wounds match those of another, we are drawn in to their pain, and we receive it as our own. I believe that is how we embrace the tribe mentality, that sense of oneness.

But every tribe has a leader, a patron. It is as natural as the wind. A leader in the sense that we are shown the way. A leader in the sense that, we are joined on the journey. Joined and protected. Sometimes encouraged, sometimes pushed, sometimes pulled, and at times, left where we are so that we may realize our need and reach to attain our goal.

But your question was, and I paraphrase, do we [survivors] find an end to our need of that guidance, or the support and praise born out of the awe of one in witness of our quest. My answer would be no, that need is most assuredly timeless, but, there is a health to us that we once could not lay claim to.

In our new state of 'health' (for want of a better word), we try our wings, we venture a little farther from the tribe. But we don't forget the tribe, we don't neglect our love of those in the tribe, but time may not be as abundant as it once was. And the natural desire is to test ourselves, to see if we really do measure up to the praise, the belief of that which was recognized in us.

You speak of a depth of feeling that many women have never appreciated from a man. The kind of love that demands nothing, requires only aceptance of the gift. If there is any hesitance, it is because you offer a new and unfamiliar thing, not a wrong thing....the most RIGHT thing that has ever been presented, that "rare treasure" of appreciation, awe, and respect.

I know from personal experience that the only reason a genuine compliment would ever be awkward for me, is when I am unable to see in myself what another sees.

The only time a "rare treasure" would be a bad thing, is when it remains un-given.

Sorry for rambling. I just wanted you to know this.

OK, I KNOW I HAVE MADE BLANKET STATEMENTS, AND I AM NOT VERY GOOD WITH WORDS OR WHAT I TRY TO GET ACROSS..........BUT THIS IS JMHO, (i hope i don't offend anyone)
1)womyn have an unspoken connection with other womyn, it is strong and steadfast, womyn are not afraid to delve deep to find their inner strength to help or share with other womyn, usually we can read each other. When needed, we 'can' hold, cry, share, love, touch, comfort, and connect to womyn on so many levels without coming across as: unnatural, acting, sexual, sleezy or have an ulterior reason..............well this is how i feel and shared with some other womyn..................IMO, i don't believe many men have this to the depth we have.....................shame huh?


2)I think they are not seen because men cannot go there, cannot delve deep or their masculine status might be compromised, they might be seen as 'less than' what a 'man' is 'meant' to be and he might find 'emotions' he has never dealt with..


3)Personally, i dont like anyone to comment on my strengths, i do find it suspicious, i find it comes across false, and sometimes i find they do it to cover what they can't deal with what is presented to them face on, when anyone gives me these remarks it puts them on a different level for me, no matter who it is.


4)N/A


5)Personally, for me, it is validation for how i am feeling right now, i may have worth, i may have a 'bright' future, but i am fighting for now.
so while explaining, eye contact, during the conversation remember to revert back to where she is at right now, so not to dismiss or demean how she is right now, dont go on about people who have been through similar and made it, for me my worth is that i can have a future life doing what i love..........not being what others see me as, or want me to become.
I carve wood and i am good at it.......................BUT............. i am so sick of, i could be famous, i could sell it, i shoulds/coulds........, stating they are jealous of my talent,
IT IS NOT WHERE I AM AT THIS MINUTE, i do it because it helps me through at this time.

What prompted me to start this discussion wasn't a particular issue, event, or person. It was because I don't want to live my life without passion or commitment, and as Ani Difranco says, "You've got your whole to do something, and that's not very long! / Why don 't you give me a call when you decide you're willing to fight for what you think is real, for what you think is right."

I'm facing the movement of time, and the changes it brings, and it makes me ask these questions about my meaning and purpose in the lives of the people I love.

American psychoanalyst Steven Mitchell wrote eloquently about how humans perform a core task: how we live in real time, given the disparity between our deepest, private hopes and dreams and the harsh truths of our actual lives. He compared it to building sand castles at the beach. To live well, we have to commit to the process of building, even though what we build might eventually be washed away by the incoming tide.

Some of us throw ourselves into building castles, oblivious to the incoming tide. We are shocked when the tide comes in and washes away our creation, and we are surprised, beaten, and bruised by this.

Others see the inevitability of the tide and don't build at all. They are crushed by the finiteness and limit even before they begin, and in their anticipation of despair they hardly venture out to live.

But then there are others of us who are aware of the tide and the transitory nature of our productions, yet we build nevertheless. The inevitable limitations of reality do not dim our passion with which we build; in fact, the inexorable realities ADD a poignancy and sweetness to what we do. In this way, we respect and recognize reality, we live fully within it, and we are not crushed by it.

Whether as a father or a therapist, I see mine as a work of building castles against the tide. I see the people finding their strengths and beauty, and I want them to use their talents, abilities, and persistence to build lives out of the world as it actually is. I want them to feel special because of what they achieve, not what they are given.

When I have a patient who describes her father as a critical, distant, inattentive man, I am hearing about a man who does not respect the existence of the tides of time. He is disconnected from the family troubles, from the beauty and elegance of his daughter, while building a sandcastle made of paychecks, work status, promotions, conveniences, and material things. The tide of his daughter's blooming strength and insight are ultimately much more powerful and meaningful than any of those things, and at the end of his days he will have nothing left of his castle, while his daughter is out to sea, consoling herself with the same refrain: "I just never expected anything much better from him."

When I see a man in therapy who is condescending to his wife about her looks--"she's fat, her breasts droop, she has leathery skin"--and carries on affairs, I am seeing a man who cannot live fully within time. He cannot truly "make love" with his wife, because in her aging he sees the reflection of himself, his eroding castle, the incoming tide of time. These men, likewise, are not connected to their children for the same reasons: the growth of children marks the passing of the man's own time toward the incoming tide of death and finite limits. So instead, he turns to women and cars and money as a "never-never land" of the senses in which he can flee from growing up. He cannot gaze, face-to-face, with the fact of his own growth, so he lives in the fantasy of limitless possibility of youth. This is a father who can vanish from his family, even while sitting at the same dinner table as his wife and daughter(s), leaving himself (and them) with nothing to show for his fifty years.

It isn't hard to figure out why I am asking these hard questions. I am trying to take an honest measure of myself in many ways: am I the "adolescent in a grown-up's body," as one of my patient's mothers (disturbingly) said to me? Am I "living my spiritual calling" as a patient said to me last week? Am I "the best man I know," as one Stradivarius wrote to me in a note that I will treasure forever? Or am I simply acting "wounded", as one person said of me after a recent personal clash?

To live in real time, as an honest and worthwhile man, I have to see the movement and changes of things around me, even those I wish would remain constant. Mockingbird is wrestling with health problems that terrify her with her mortality, and so is my own mother (I haven't talked about that here). My childhood best friend was killed when I was 19 by a drunk driver, and I have never cried over that loss. Victoria has moved and found a job hundreds of miles away. Shannon has a new person she calls "my therapist" and it causes me to twinge with pangs of loss--will I fade? Or do I still have something to offer that will make me valuable? My sons adore me and treasure our time together, but their adolescent day is coming when they won't want me to be seen with them, to stay out of their room, and so on. Two nights ago, my 5-year-old napped on my chest and last night, my 8-year-old went to the sweatlodge with me. I'm also passing the landmark of 500 rape cases so far in my career, and beginning to reminisce about the many, many special women who have since faded back into the world and become lost to me. Where did they go? Where did *I* go, to them?

So as a father and as a therapist, I encourage people to build their sandcastles, even as I also gently prepare them for losing what they have built to the relentless tides. What I want to know, though, is whether this work has enduring meaning in the life of a survivor (and whether *I* have enduring meaning in her life, too), or whether it is a tool that one uses as one needs it, and then sets it down. They may remember it, yes, but they live on without it. This isn't about ego, narcissism, or even insecurity--it's about a search for meaning in the world. When someone transforms from victim to survivor, are they done with ME, then? For the first time, I have a person I regard as an apprentice--a prodigy, really--and it gives me a sense of permanence as if this legacy can be passed on and continue to generate meaning beyond my own individual efforts. That has revitalized and refreshed me in ways I cannot describe, because it means there is another "sandcastle builder" watching me but not copying me.

As I write this, though, something else occurs to me. Children who build sandcastles also build elaborate moats and sluices, in recognition of the inevitable waves. Thus, they make the impermanence of their creations part of their joy. In other words, they build because of the tides, not in spite of them. As adults, we have much to learn from children.

Our lives, too, are made out of the tides of time, not made in spite of them.

wow, i'm going to copy about the sandcastles and read it over to digest it..........again, wow.
thanks.

I would like to be seen as an equal... I want to be respected for my mind and my heart not by what physical pleasure I can provide.

I had a patient once who said some interesting things to me about this topic. As she began to work through her rapes, she also became extremely scared of the result--"who am I without my pain?" It's a question I hear over and over in therapy, and it seems to be a common undercurrent of rape recovery. But when I hear the question I can't respond with, "Oh, I've heard that question a bunch of times. You'll be fine!" because each woman's pain means something unique to her, and each new woman is someone unique without it. It's actually a NEW question every time it's asked, just with the same vocabulary.

In an ironically positive development, this patient became very depressed and sad while progressing out of her trauma. This often happens when a person finally has enough strength, enough help, to stop the behaviors and gambits that have been designed to flee from pain. She was able to feel her actual feelings, and they felt sad. But instead of panicking and screaming, "I can't handle this! I'm losing it!" she said, "so THIS is what sadness feels like! So THIS is what it's like to have a real emotion! Wow!"

When she finished her work, she said to me, "I think I'm finally happy with where I am. And part of it is that I can finally see that I've built my life not only in spite of my pain, but I've built it in no small part OUT OF my pain." These words remain powerful, and they reveal, I believe, the essence of real hope. You can't stay in the corner of your forest hoping and waiting for others to come to you. You have to go to them sometimes.

Being a therapist means I have to be careful and wise enough not to get conscripted into naive or self-serving agendas. It means subduing all inclinations to be omnipotent or narcissistic, and to live honestly and generously, and even to allow patients to feel pain that I want to rescue them from. I see a female human being twisting and writhing in emotional pain from her rapes, and I cannot leap in to save her--I have to allow her to fully feel it. Many times in group when a woman is in tears, she will stop herself and regain her composure until I say to her, "you're not done." And the tears begin again.

This is a more real way of teaching about the challenges of the world, than to just tell her to "think happy thoughts" and "do a worksheet." Being a large male, many women's first and foremost challenge in working through their rapes is ME. But a decision not to intervene can have the power of active action. It's an ultimate statement of trust--"you WILL get through this"--and I believe it really speaks volumes about love and commitment and respect.

So how did I get to this post from the starting topic of feminism?

Real women live in real bodies, and they need real support with their real struggles. If we--men and women--are to meet the world outside ourselves with strength and conviction, if we are bring our minds, our selves, our hopes, our wishes to a relentless challenge of living, then we must be allowed, encouraged, and even forced to collide repeatedly with the hard, flinty edges of reality.

Without such collisions, we will not learn how to be architects and movers of our own destinies, and we will instead be hamstrung by the entitled and self-defeating belief that this world will, and should, shape itself to OUR wishes and fantasies. We become inoculated against retreating into a muffled, daydream world of fantasy, dissociation, and self-involvement. We find the essential stuff of our own selves.

In this process, I find myself watching person after person become finally set free of rape, and yet I also find myself hoping that in their freedom they do not abandon the meaning and value of this work, of me, of the tribe of survivors. I don't want to be left behind.

I look across the room to a woman who feels powerless and used, and it's like hearing the sounds of a life through a wall. And I am glad for the suggestion of something, however faint, that even she could not previously find.

We are always changing.

Thank you all for the feedback to me in messages and hugs. I appreciate the support. This has been a tough issue for me.