Pregnancy Support Group
Welcome to the waiting room for anticipating moms and dads. Whether you're expecting your first or a new little brother or sister, meet other parents in this community who are also looking forward to a new addition to the family.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/80743.php
Second, it already happened with the FDA does not approve formula thread, originally posted in the Newborn section. Some people there said to post in the pregnancy group, so I did.
You see, you just cannot please all people, all the time! Been there, done that!
Despite that, some of these very ferocious women attacking me in this thread were the very ones to attack me for posting the FDA thread.
Third, I do believe that I provide a very important source of support...precisely for women that may face important decisions, such as pressure for an epidural, and induction, or a caeserean..usually, from their own caregivers.
As some of you mention, durng pregnancy many of us more vulnerable than ever, and more likely then, to succumb to procedures we might normally question, just because we have full trust in our caregiver, and do not stop to question what is being proposed. Especially when in th emiddle of active labour!
THe information I post may well help one woman make a clear and enlightened decision. Whatever it is. It may be yes, to get an epidural. It may be to go for an induction. Whatever it is. It is her choice. The sole objective here is not to scare anyone, but to raise awareness about particular issues. Because I have learned that md's, unfortunately, are often the ones to scare you into proceures that may, or may not be, medically necessary.
Like the fact that an epidural IS a medical intervention, and like any other medical intervention, it does carrry its own risks:
I am realy surprised that an anaesthesiologist can actually claim that there is absolutely no risk to epidurals! THAT IS VERY MISLEADING!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9818616/page/2/
Many things can happen because of an epidural, including nerve damage, fetal distress, infection, post-epidural heaadaches, headaches, etc. And indeed, if your baby does go into fetal distress, because the epidural LOWERS his heart rate as a secondary effect, then you MAY well end up with an emergency c-section.
Yet women are routinely given epidurals without so much as a bat of an eye. If you are fully informed of the risks, the pros and the cons, and decide for one, then great. What is not ok is to have an epidural pushed on you, because 1) everyone else is getting it, and 2) you ar going to "need" it...when it may just not be the case. More of us should have confidence in our bodies. Instead, fear from the medical establishement often pushes us into compliance.
Look at the H1N1 vax. It seems that most moms here are too afraid to get it, because there are risks. I am sure that at least some moms would try without an epidural if they knew that it too, has risks.
There are tons of risks with epidurals. They may not be too frequent, but they do exist. And when something DOES go wrong, keep in mind that it si going straight into your spinal cord fluid....
Here is a link on the increase of incidence of fever:
http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Fulltext/2001/11000/Labor_Epidural_Analgesia_and_Intrapartum_Maternal.10.aspx
There is quite a bit of evidence tha epidurals can slow down labour, which MAY in turn lead to other complications..such as, as I mentioned previously, labour slowing down, sometimes to the point that you may need to get pitocin (induction) to get labour going again), and eventually, a c-secion.
In Leighton, B.L., and S.H. Halpern. 2002. The effects of epidural anesthesia on labor, maternal, and neonatal outcomes: A systematic review. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 186: S69-77, it is said that first stage labour is prolonged ON AVERAGE by 26 minutes; second stage labour is prolonged, on AVERAGE, by 15 minutes.
In Lieberman, E., and C. ODonoghue. 2002. Unintended effects of epidural anesthesia during labor: A systematic review. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 186: S31-68. THis study showed that first stage labour can be proloned by as much as 0.4 to 4.8 hours because of an epidural, and that second stage labour (pushing) was up to 55 minutes longer.
Pros and cons of epidurals during labour:
http://pregnancychildbirth.suite101.com/article.cfm/epidural_risks
Risks vs. Benefits of Epidurals:
http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/articles/birth/epidural/index.php
Here is a link on how to minimize the risks of epidural anaesthesia:
http://transitiontoparenthood.com/ttp/parented/pain/epiduralfx.htm
Again, it is YOUR choice. You are the mom. It is your body and your baby. have a birth plan, and be sure to go over it, carefully, with the md. Discuss it at length to make sure that he knows what you do and do not want.
And if there is any elective procedure that you do not want, be very clear on that.
Do you see how it makes you defensive?
Because the way you respond to me is exactly what you accuse me of allegedly doing to other moms here!
When I have some moms who do have high-risk, complicated, long-awaited pregnancies ACCUSE ME of fear-mongering, well that is just not true. THe same way, as I said before, I cannot pass judgement on individual situations, for example, were a mom may end up stopping bf and starting formula.
As for epidurals, I know that compared to others, I DO have a relatviely LOW threshhold for pain. Which was why I ever agree to my first one, and second one, and third one. However, by #3, I had made up my mind to avoidit, if at all possible.
But because, as I wrote elsewhere, if you have an induction, your body has less time to acclimatize to the pain, and I was in big pain and feared that I would be so wiped out that I wold end up with a c-s, I askedforone..only after beign given WRONG assurance that it would NOT have any impact on the baby. by the md, eager to do it!
THe fact is, that the epiduralis CONTRAINDICATED in cases of fetal distress, which my baby was having. Get it? Either the md was a total idiot, or he lied. In any case, he gave me the WRONG INFORMATION. And I did not know any better, so I blieved him.
After two relatively uneventful, vaginal deliveries, everyone, my ob-gyn included, was telling me that #3 would be a piece of cake.
When you are waiting for your first one, you just have no idea of what awaits you. I agree it can be very scary. That is why it is good to learn about it, what will happen, what is your plan of action.
NOBODY expecte the tragic outcome that happened with my third child, especially, I hate to admit it, me. I had decided I would try to avoid all medical interventions, including an induction, epidural etc. When baby was still not coming, two weeks late, I got scared into the induction.
The point is, even if it is your second, third, or fourth child, a birth is very important. It is important that it be carried out right. One way you can help is to be knowledgeable about it, and to know what to do if x,y, or z happens. I had this false sense of security, because even friends and family were tellling me"babies are born all the time..." "no big deal" etc. SO, I was not necessarily up-tospeed, because after two years, you tend to forget many things that you may have known.
When inadvertently, my baby in NICU at 2 weeks of age was left an entire 8 hour shift by accident without the oxygen he needed, and when it was we who discovered this error, because nobody else was bright enough to figure it out, not even the md's, not the respiratory therapists, not the nurse who messed up hooking up the equipment, for the safety of other babies, I asked the chief neonatologist what if anything was done about it.
He retorqued, " You are so lucky your baby is even alive! Do you know that if he would have been born in any other hospital, he would have died? He neede nitric oxide therapy to survive! And we are one of only two hospitals in mOntreal ot have this essential therapy!"
I replied that if he had not been born in that f...hospital, he never would have needed Nitric Oxide in the first place!
Not to mention the additional damage done to his lungs eing off oxygen an entire shift when he NEEDED oxygen to survive....he needed more aggressive treatments to get the added water off his lungs after that incident, an increased oxygen supply, etc.
Yes there are risks in EVERYTHING around us. I had to have the first c section due to extream fetal distress and it was a goodthing because he was almost still born. The second c section was because I lived to far away to risk labor. The tird c section will be because Ive had 2 prior and its just not medically safe to have a vaginal. I have way to many medical factors that need to be controlled and as sad as it makes me vaginal birth is not an option for me. On the flip side because of all the risks this time around and everything that has happened I will be having my tubes tied to not have to put anougher baby at risk.
With all the risks that I have I have buried my head in the sand just a little. Mind you I do know the risks but to be honest I need to trust in the choices I made for doctors and thier medical knowledge. I think that that is one of the most important decisions out of ALL the decisions I have had to make. 16 years ago I built a bond with my OB and I know he trusts my mothers instint but will also guide me medically in the right decission. HEhas proven this over and over this pregnancy.
I guess my point to all this is that we have to have faith and trust in our medical systam and the tools we have at our disposal. Yes there will be risks but you could get hit in the car by a drunk driver with out any warning either. If something bad is going to happen it will happen and even though we have the chance to take precations we have to have faith too. As for posting the info I find that it is informative. we have yet anougher choice and thats to read or not read reply or not reply. It can make intresting discussions we just have to keep in mind that there is no right choice and and that we all must do what is right for us...
ANy way Im rambling and not sure where Im going with this so Ill end it here
There are other places to discuss these issues, and in some places they should be discussed, but not here. We should be able to come on this board as a safe place and be able to feel comfortable here, without the fear of being judged... and honestly, I am getting the vibe that people are starting to feel judged on this board, and that is not healthy.
Debbie
I merely stated the truth supported by facts. That is that epidurals are not associated with increased maternal moratality (death rate) so I did not understand why you were choosing to include them in your discussion on maternal mortality. None of the references that you cited have anything to do with maternal mortality.
Based on your post it seemed like you thought that epidurals would increase maternal mortality by increasing the need for c-section. Therefore, I addressed the facts in regards to this assumption. That is that multiple studies have proven that epidurals do not increase the rate of c-section. Please note even the studies that demonstrate that epidurals slowed labor, showed that they did not slow it down enough to increase c-section rate. Effect on fetal heart rate has also not been significant enough to alter c-section rates.
Is this a post about maternal mortality and educating women about the facts concerning that topic? That is what I thought it was. That is why I only included information pertinent to that discussion. I do not understand how you can infer from that that I don't think there are any risks associated with epidurals. It just means those risks don't have anything to do with maternal mortality. (Which is what I thought we were discussing).
The reason that it seems like you are using fear and emotion to push your agenda is because you introduce a topic like maternal death rates and then tie to it other medical interventions that do not increase mortality. It certaintly seemed like you were suggesting that epidurals increase maternal mortality. Based on this it seemed like you were presenting information in a misleading fashion.
Again I am sorry that you had a bad birthing experience, and I understand why this is an emotionally charged subject for you. I understand that you have good intentions, but as I have discussed with you before I think that your approach is wrong. In this post I think I only reiterated that. I merely made an observation that your posts tend to create some negative emotions that are not in the spirit of this site and tried to suggest a means whereby your voice could be heard but it would not have this negative effect. I have never attacked you and I am quite taken back that you would lash out at me when I present facts. After all, you are consistently enraged that others get upset at you when you feel you are doing the same thing. I am even more taken back that you would put words in my mouth that I did not say.
I completely agree that you can not preach to the converted. Actually, I think that you SHOULD NOT preach to the converted when it comes to healthcare. These are personal decisions that each woman has to make for herself. I do not think it is right to try and talk anyone into or out of anything. It is to provide objective acurate information that allows them to make informed decisions about what is right for them. In this spirit, I planned on posting information on this site providing objective information about pros and cons of epidurals, but as I watched posts turn nasty I decided to wait. Now that I see my words get twisted around,I have decided not to.
I do think that each woman should get the information necessary to make an informed decision about what is right for them, but that information doesn't have to come from me. I encourage each woman on this site that is interested in getting an epidural to attend a birthing class with a session taught by an anesthesiologist. If this is not available, then ask your ob which anesthesia practice covers them and how you can get in touch with them to discuss this topic. I do agree with Franny that this is something you should do prior to presenting in labor. The reason is that when you are in pain it is difficult to really listen to information and make an informed decision about what you want. The internet can be a valuable tool for finding information, but it can also be a terrible source of biased and misinformation. I encourage you to do your own research and then ask your anesthesiologist about what you find.
My goals in this post are the same as it has always been that is to help support others on this site. In that spirit, I have no desire to get into a back and forth with Franny about epidurals. I also no longer think this is a great forum for this sort of education. I think it is clear that this discussion is quite emotionally charged, and the best patient education occurs when information can be conveyed in an objective factual manner without all the nasty back and forth. Clearly, this is not what happens here. I encourage each of you to ask your anesthesiologist about the things Franny mentioned. Ask them about what the newer studies are showing in relation to epidural effect on labor rate and why different studies are showing different things. Ask about risks and how common those risks occur. Then I think you will be empowered to make an informed decision about what is right for you. I wish each and every woman on this site a happy and healthy delivery.
Sincerely,
Kara