Jeane, it's established on the historical record that the CIA played the role you suggest. It has backfired in Iran and Cuba. I interviewed a CIA agent in my book on South America, and he showed me a scrapbook of his "kills." He was remorseful, for what that's worth, and warned me not to join up, though I wasn't interviewing him with that in mind anyway. Quite to the contrary.

Countries need intelligence services, of course, but there are times when they cross the line, and ours did. There's a book about it called The China Hands about missionary kids like me, who are loyal US citizens yet understand foreign cultures from having lived in them. The book suggests that hiring folks like us for intelligence-gathering would be preferable to hiring xenophobes who see war as the solution to too many problems.

That's where that CIA agent I interviewed was coming from. The xenophobes have the upper hand at the Agency too often, so for my own good he was warning me to stay away. I didn't need any warning, but I thanked him nonetheless. It was validation.

I'm interested in what's being said here about how brains work as to being a Democrat or a Republican. My book was about Uruguay, the country I was raised in during missionary service there, not the USA, my passport country. In it research among Uruguayan leaders pointed to a need for more than two parties to solve the problem of its failed democracy in the 1970s. It's a matter of record that with Operation Condor, the CIA did give it a push toward its fall, but Uruguayans took responsibility for the rest of the catastrophe by saying a two party system for them had become a dilemma system, not a problem solving system.

The man who sad those words was a founder in exile in Mexico of a third party to move from dilemma to problem solving. I interviewed him for my book in Mexico, and what he planned there for the return to democracy came to be in Uruguay though he himself died before getting to return. Like third parties in the USA, the third party he founded started out as a long shot. Eventually, it gained ground, and now it has won three presidential elections in a row. As a newcomer to presidential power, it has succeeded in bringing poverty down from 40% in 2005 to 7% now.

After 3 terms, though, its newness is fading, and it may lose to one of the two traditional parties next year. What's new now is what I've mentioned above, the new party in Mexico led by Lopez Obrador, or AMLO, who is ahead in the polls by 20% for the presidential election coming up July 1st.

Maybe rewiring our brains doesn't have to follow just one of two patterns, but could follow a third pattern, too? Me, I'm liberal in some ways and very conservative in others. For example, as a minister in training in seminary I transferred out of the school I was attending to another because my systematic theology professor was sleeping with a student in the class. No one would do anything about it because the student's dad was mega rich. As an associate pastor, I resigned from being on staff in a big church because the senior pastor divorced his wife of 20 years because he was carrying on an affair with a parishioner. He still got to have his second wedding in that church building.

I'm conservative about those boundaries, but then my father punched me in the face because as a hospital chaplain I was too liberal for him. I allowed LGBTQ partners to visit patients as family members rather than restrict them to the hallway while allowing ex-spouses into patient rooms even though they were divorced. I wasn't trying to be a gay marriage activist then, I was just saying that boundary seemed hypocritical.

I can't be all conservative all the time nor all liberal all the time. Sometimes circumstances call forth a conservative response from me, as in seminary and church did, and sometimes circumstances call forth a liberal response from me, as the hospital did. It seems discernment was the point for me, not following a pre-existing script alone.

Is that an ok way to be wired? It's not saying things are just "relative," for me, it's just that growing up as an patriotic American abroad made me realize sometimes I had to make decisions based on what I knew from my passport culture and sometimes I had to make decisions based on my local foreign culture. Starting with food. I lived in Mexico, so I didn't just live on hamburgers because I was a US citizen, because I was in Mexico, I ate tacos, too. I was free to pick and choose.

That micro experience for me informs my macro outlook on things like politics. Instead of just making either/or decisions, I can pick and choose in a third way, too. It seems that could be a way forward for the US in this time in which its two party system seems to be having trouble satisfying the needs of 330 million citizens. But I could be wrong; what worked for Uruguay may not work for the USA, though it seems it might be worth a try. Canada and England have grown a bit beyond strictly two party systems, and Mexico is about to on July 1st.

It's been 45 years since there's been a draft.

45 years.

Men have to register. Women do not. Yes, if, and only if the draft gets reinstated, and the military decides that they want them, and who knows what else happens...then yes, women could get drafted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

You don't have to look anything up "for" me. I've very capable of looking all of this stuff up for myself.


The thing about "putting aside differnces"...is that we all have different priorities.

As for the draft...I'd join in making it the SAME for men and women. I have BOTH a son and daughter that I care about.

That said...I don't see that happening, neither today, nor anytime in the future.

@Jeane...my name is Patti....just saying.

Why do you think that this is some Theoretical issue for me?

If there is a FULL scale war, I sure hope that the country doesn't only draft men. Young teen boys already feel like the country doesn't give a crap about them unless they are some Fortunate Son...like our president who can suddenly develop some bone spur and avoid the draft.

Do you think that a father's value in the life of a child is less than a mother's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec0XKhAHR5I

Thanks for your comments about the idea of a multiparty system, Jeane. I really appreciate being heard on the topic. It worked in the country I grew up in as far as getting them out of the corner their democracy had gotten backed into. So even though the idea often falls on deaf ears here in my passport country of the USA, it seems it might be coming time here to reconsider it as a way out of the gridlock Washington's been in now for so many years. The two party system is not in the Constitution or any of the Founding Fathers' documents. It's a 20th century invention. Why not give adapting democracy to the 21st century a shot?

On the subject of the draft you and patti have been discussing for some time here, I'm just reminded of how I sweated it with my classmates in college back in 1976. South Vietnam has just fallen to the North making it a bitter reality that 50,000 American lives had been spent defending the Saigon government in vain. The issue of the draft was being raised, and to us young folks in college it instilled fear.

We were not in today's context, in which military service is seen as a willingness to fight ISIS and its allies who would attack our homeland the way terrorists did on 9/11. Our fear was that the draft would be reinstated to waste our lives in another Vietnam.

Lucky for us, the birth dates the government established for requiring youths to register for the draft bypassed my generation on purpose. The government didn't want to go there.

By the way, when 9/11 happened, it was another matter for me. I physically went down to an Army recruiter and tried to join up to fight back. But by then I was too old. They wouldn't take me, not even as a military chaplain, even though I was a hospital chaplain by then.

Just remembrances on the topic, again not meaning to hijack the conversation, just my two cents. Thanks for listening.

Sorry to all of you down in the US, sounds like alot is going on. We have so many parties up here, I think it helps divide us more then just 2 sides. Politics are always heated topics and I read that the subject of politics is aligned somehow in the amygdala so I guess that is why we are so passionate about the view point.
When is. your next election?

Politics and religion can be really hot topics ....... Nobody burn their fingers on DS!!!

Big hugs......xo

I haven't read all the replies, just a few of the first ones.

For me personally working in the financial markets and having PTSD, especially from 9/11 & 2009 downturn, I can t err lol you I am deeply troubled by what I see going on in policy. I try to stay agnostic, so to speak because I have clients from both sides and I must remain non partisan. BUT, it is hard when I see fundamental rights for women LGBTQ immigration and the 1st amendment being attacked in the way of our press.

I wrote a book report on Trump in college. I actually almost went to work at Trump Towrr in NY as I had a friend who was connected and wanted to set up interview. Thankfully I went to so cal instead. What I'm saying is, just wait for all the news to come out especially when they release his fixer's documents. He will go down like Nixon. Everything he does is to profit himself, in my strong opinion.

Follow the money...it is connected to Russia. I am reading a book called the Panama Papers. It is where oligarchs and dictators and all dirty money go to hide from taxes and dirty deals. I have read extensively on the money trail and let me tell you, it's ugly.

Again, imo, Trumo will kerpblowing out that fog machine to hide the truth but the truth will prevail. I just pray to God that the investigation is over before he does too much destruction as it is having an effect on my health.

P.s. Roizen, 100% agree. Muji, book, gonna look for it. You are the real deal, "live to tell" story. People should heed your wisdom. Sad u r going back to Latin America but hope you stay on d.s.

Arfie, girl power ! I'm with you :)

Here's hoping we get some positivity back in our political system. And yes, thank God for Colbert , Seth Meyers and Trevor Noah. Some sanity!

I don't know what you're talking about censored Jeane?

There are moderators on this board …. There are three pages up here right now... Are you going to the next page as the topic progresses?

Your posts don't automatically disappear without you getting a message from the site unless there is some sort of glitch?


There is no sort of censorship here now that I see???....

It's written on a post if we close a post due to the DS Rules of the Road unless it's spam

If you look at the bottom of this post..... it's written 1 2 3..... There are now three pages of comments.... and if you click on either the 1, 2 or 3 it will take you to that page of comments

Are you moving from page to page with the comments.... No one is removing your comments sweetie....

People on DS don't play games with members.... This is peer support for all of us..... If there is ever a comment removed you'd get a message from the site as to why....

I see that there are several comments you've made on the different pages.... Does that make sense?..... Big hug......xo

This is page one

https://www.dailystrength.org/group/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/discussion/the-usa-is-falling-to-republican-fascism

Page 2

https://www.dailystrength.org/group/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/discussion/the-usa-is-falling-to-republican-fascism?page=2

Page 3

https://www.dailystrength.org/group/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/discussion/the-usa-is-falling-to-republican-fascism?page=3

If you look through the pages hopefully your comments are all there......xo

During my years as Latin American Studies Director at Drake University, the US was sponsoring the "Contra" War against the then Cuban-leaning revolutionary Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The Contra War led to the Iran-Contra scandal inside the USA for President Reagan's administration, because like a lot of things, it began as a legitimate opposition to some abuses that the Sandinistas were committing at the time along with other good things they did overthrowing the dictator Somoza's regime. But in time, the Contras and the Sandinistas both became infiltrated by opportunists and mercenary money makers off the spoils of war and power. Since the Contra side was the one being supported by my country, the USA, as Latin American Studies director at a university I proposed being allowed to lead a delegation to visit the Contra military base for a fact finding mission.

I was surprised to be allowed; it was arranged for me and a group from my university by Senator Grassley, who is still the Republican senior US senator representing Iowa. We flew to Palmerola, the US military base in Honduras near the Nicaraguan border from which Contra operations were led, and were given a tour of the base and a briefing about its activities by a US Army colonel.

We were treated with hospitality by him and our hosts, and so we received their version of their activities politely, something I insisted on as leader when I spoke to my group about our unique opportunity. A foundational flaw in the US mission backing the Contras there revealed itself without our having to pry to find it, though, in the very words the colonel used to describe the Hondurans who allowed the US base to operate from its soil. People from Honduras as known as "Hondurans," yet as the colonel gave his speech about how close he felt his ties were with the local folks he kept referring to them inaccurately with a word of his own, "Honduranians."

It was a small thing in and of itself, I know, but in context it was telling. The delegation I was leading began to snicker as the colonel misspoke over and over using that incorrect word throughout his briefing. I turned around in my chair at the front of the room as leader and gave my delegation stone cold stares to shut them up to remain diplomatic and courteous, but I have to admit I was suppressing bitter chuckles myself.

I love Latin America where I grew up as a missionary kids, and living there I learned to call them by their true names. Then I grew to love and be grateful for the USA, my passport country, when it welcomed me home to escape to safety from war in Latin America when conflict engulfed it. I was a Latin American Studies director to serve as a bridge between it and the USA out of care for both. I was deeply blessed when those wars ended and peace between the USA and Latin American mostly came to pass in my lifetime.

That's when I went on to become a hospital chaplain, and then to teach nursing students patient care after that now that my kidney failure took me out of ER hospital work with trauma patients. Thanks, jeane, for writing about caring for the world and the USA both as you do now, for writing of deep love of country. It's a hard road, but love wins, even if you're left with PTSD--there's support for that here, and I grateful for it every day..

This thread went all over the place. A few quick things:
"Bernie Sanders said women want to be raped. Bill Clinton actually raped a woman as per reports."
These are both false and like patti said their hasn't been a draft for 45 years.

Muller's investigation has had 17 indictments and 5 guilty pleas from Trump associates.
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-mueller-investigation-one-year/

Hillary has 0. Obama has 0. There's no comparing Democrats to Republicans. Congressional Republicans have elevated Trump above the law. Trump's lawyer said he could have shot the FBI director and he's talking about pardoning himself; does an innocent man do these things? I stand by the US intelligence agencies and courts. I don't trust Republicans to uphold the law or constitution. Trump was right about 1 thing:
"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters,"
-Trump

It doesn't matter how much he lies, destroys bonds with our closest allies like Canada, Brittan and Germany, how many national secrets he gives to Russian ambassadors, how he was caught on tape bragging about grabbing women's genitals, how he used campaign finances to pay a porn star $130k to keep quiet about sleeping with him when he was married, or how insane and stupid he is on a daily basis with tweets, his base supports him regardless.

Vote them out.

Thanks, Jeane, for the compliment. I was as persuasive as I could be, but I have to credit Sen. Grassley for surprising me with that kind of access for me and my students.

Thanks for asking me what we found out. I've always wanted to share it with somebody, but nobody ever asked me before, and I'm grateful to you for it. What we learned was that there is a grain of truth in every conspiracy theory, yet that conspiracies aren't as vast as rumor makes them out to be, not even for the CIA.

When you meet them face to face, though you may think they're dead wrong (I survived torture taught by a CIA operative I knew personally), usually they aren't the cynics you expect, but mostly true believers--or at least ex-true believers. Perhaps that's what makes them more dangerous than if they were the Machiavellian villains seen on movie screens. They're too sincere to stop what they're doing until it's too late.

So that's where Rizen's right: "Vote them out." They won't stop themselves, they can't see the wrong they're doing, at least a core number of them truly can't. They're the sincere ones getting manipulated by insincere higher ups who'll run them--and us--right off the edge of a cliff. So those of us who can see the big picture and who haven't drunk the Kool Aid, must vote them out and get the power out of their hands.

They are like us, after all, even us here at DS PTSD. Trauma confronts us all with a clear choice every time: next either we heal or we hurt more--hurt ourselves and others. The cliche "hurt people hurt people" is true. It's true of me just as much as both of my parents who beat me bloody. It's true of me just as much as it is of the South American officer who tortured me in one of my 3 unjust incarcerations under dictatorship. It's true of me just as much as it is of the dictator's South American officer who put a gun to my head the last time I was detained and pulled the trigger on that gun that mercifully jammed.

The hardest thing for me to face was that it's even true of me just as much as it is of the military pedophile who raped me and 4 other of my elementary school classmates during the dictatorship. Deep down rape isn't a crime of sexual pleasure alone, it's a crime of control and power. Most pedophiles were themselves molested, and instead of healing empowerment, they went for the power of hurting, and the sick cycle continued.

None of these perps was born that way, every single one of them was a cute baby. At some point they got hurt, and then self pity brought the thirst for power, and to be empowered out of victim-hood instead of healing, they chose hurting. And the sick cycle of violence started all over again.

That's what we found out, and it held true for that international experience on the macro level as much as it held true for our individual micro levels in our personal experience. I decided to get to work on the healing v. hurting choice.

Since I can't make things happen on the world stage, I decided to try it on the individual level, and to work in ER's as a hospital chaplain with trauma victims one by one as soon as their hurt happened. The earlier they saw there was empowerment in healing, the sooner they might not opt for the other choice to hurt somebody for power, and one more cycles of violence might stop with me.

So listen to Rizen: what we can each do about the things discussed in this thread is "Vote them out." They need for us to, for their sake and for ours as well.

Thanks for asking, Jeane, and thanks for this thread, Rizen, and to everyone who participated. It's hard to discuss politics or religion under any circumstances, and even more so when we have the pain of trauma thrown into the mix like we have amongst us.

For us to agree and disagree back and forth through dozens of replies now is a testament to us and our commitment in care and peer support here at DS PTSD. The DS Rules of the Road don't encourage politics or religion in its support groups for a reason because it so often goes toxic in so many groups. Thanks for letting me not have to close this thread as Community Leader here because you all made it an exception to the rule through so many dozens of exchanges. I appreciate it for me personally as Muji as much as I say it as a DS CL, too. Thank you.