I don't know the difference until it's too late, in my life, Arfie, so that's all I've got. Usually, my warning sign (seen only in hindsight) is how drained I am by the interactions. What I *should* do is limit it in time and energy. What I don't do is realize that until I feel emotional exhaustion setting in.

I think if you only offer advice when asked, that's fine... as long as they don't keep asking the same question and hoping you give different adivce. Adults (children and parents alike) ideally can say, "And here's why I wish that wasn't the advice..." to one another. Note: *ideally*. Reality? Bah.

Much support, and many wishes for peace.

I don't know. So I decided to love the crap out of my kids. Enjoy every single second that I can with them. (I know of no one with more inside jokes. Among the many animals that we pretend to be...we're all bears. I'm a panda bear (p for patti, p for panda). My son is a black bear, my daughter a "care-bear". The care-bear has it's own language. No literal words. But my kids come home everyday and the first thing my son does is look for the care-bear to hug. Then they talk in care-bear language...involving no words.)

People like those stories. Heck it's even more fun watching them. From a distance, people sometimes stare.

None of it is "success". None is function or dysfunction. It won't get them into college, or a job. It's just the stuff that makes life worth living.

If the help is the stuff that makes 'life worth living'...I'd call it supportive. If you're going out and buying alcohol for an alcoholic that literally can't get themselves dressed...then I'll call it enabling. The grey areas in between...pfft...life is to short for me to worry about.

Just my take, Patti

Wow I.... I would have to think about that one for a minute. Normally, I would say that you would know in your heart whether what you are doing is right or wrong, enabling dysfunctional behavior, or being supportive. But considering real life circumstances id have to think about that. In some circumstances i'd rather be supportive and figure out that I was wrong and shouldn't have been supportive, rather than not be supportive to someone and find out that person needed my support. But that can also be circumstantial, I just think that in my opinion id rather be wrong and make a mistake, but that can have its consequences so I don't suggest that you be like me haha.

Arfie, I read this and started to cry. It may be way off base to say, but I see it as supportive, as love, as hard as it is to be in the middle. I think my tears were from never having a connection, a bond to any family, to even be able to ask, or a place to even stay when I was ill. The fact that you are asked, the little grandchildren that are affected... I wish I knew what to say except "one day at a time" your advice may not be visible immediately, but coming from a good place in your heart your words can mean alot in the future...just feels like a pinball machine now. Just my thoughts and I am not in your shoes! Hugs and Self care Thoughts♡

Yea, after 40 odd years of estrangement, I still feel the sucking black hole where my birth family is supposed to be acutely. I feel it as high honors to be an active part in the lives of my grandchildren.

I often worry that the intensity of all that makes me incapable of objectivity. Is it healthy that they keep coming back?

your children and grandkids love you in spite the horrors of your past. Yes it IS absolutely healthy that they keep coming back. It means you're a decent kind caring human being and you're helping to break the cycle of what you went through in your youth. trying to make the next generation and the generation after that better. Hats off to you Arf. You're a huge bloody inspiration to me.

best as always

Manda xx

Arfie, they return. Is that healthy? Well... In my father's family, returning was under duress, if at all, and that is the polite version. So the fact they return, and seek out your advice, is... well, sounds kinda like my mom's family, and the'yre fairly "normal"/healthy. Y'know, we loved going there as kids, we enjoy staying in touch, and my late grandma? OMG, she was practically a holy shrine the way family flocked to her. So... When you have no basis for comparison, yeah, that'd be confusing. I, however, do. Dad's side = sucking co-dependent abyss of abusive dysfunction that put the "fun" in funeral. Mom's side = dependable and affectionate and being around each other willingly even on bad days.
So... in that context, I'd say... You're in the good zone. Kudos!

So I know I am super young, but I do have expirence with dysfunctional families. So the warning sign for me is whether or not the person giving advice is looking for the long term good. Sometimes my mom or uncle would simply tell my other uncle to sleep the drugs/alcohol off and try to keep him more so distracted from his problems. What they should have done is point out the root cause and force him to see it. Or with my Naneh's anxiety my father would just tell her to calm down or to take more medication when they should have taken her to a mental health specialist.

Another warning I've found is whether or not the advice is temporary. So for my uncle being forced to take care of my grandma was a temporary fix from his drug problems or for my Naneh taking many sleeping pills was a temporary fix. Where as getting real lasting help was a more permanent fix or at least a step in the direction towards healing.

Sorry I know that was probably confusing but I hope this helps!

Thank you, all. It is a tough sort.

Believe it, or not, the majority of my siblings stayed together. Where else on Earth are they going to find acceptance of the codes we were raised with? And, like street gangs or organized crime families, they have zero tolerance for anyone like them, but a syllable off of their family code. Coming home means you are ready to turn the family dysfunction into your personal code and live by it.

But at the same time, homo sapiens are a gregarious species, hard-wired with the need for family. The lone human is forever unrequited.

Confusing stuff, indeed. Sorting . . . It helps to find words for ^it^. Humans are also hard-wired for verbal expression.

Thanks for the sort space.