such a shame :(

I saw the statementin th epaper. Definitely a lot to cope with, as you say, Muji. One dx, two dx, how many before you just wonder if ther's anyone left under the dx's? That thought's hit me more than once.

Some are suggesting that it somehow makes his death less tragic, as it was to avoid worse suffering, but to me, that's sort of cheapening the effect of *depression* caused by whatever reason---age, disease, etc. etc.... b/c ultimately, it was despair that led him to that decision, IMO.

But that' IMO.

I know if I get a dx like Alzheimer's, terminal cancer, etc., I reserve the right to take my life when I deem it necessary, and I will not criticize that choice in another. Any more than I'd dis them for suicide at all, for whatever reason.

It's all stil tragic...

How sick am I to see no tragedy in death? I cannot seem to see it as any more than Life's Natural Cycle of Renewal. I see it all around me every day and cannot see the tragedy. If I want the beauty of new roses on my vine, the old roses must make room for the new. If I want to continue in life, I must consume life at every meal. I am an omnivore.

The tragedies are in life. The cruelties and apathies that block our ability to live fully. When there comes the day when I can no longer live fully, can I please have the same mercy I showed my old dog when he could no longer get up without crying in pain? Is a loving send off too much to ask?

Arfie, I'm a vegetarian and eat life at every meal. Those veggies and things were alive before they were picked off a plant and then I ate 'em. *chomp*

I find the tragedy not in dying but in the fact he felt such despair and hopelessness. ...

But bear in mind my rawness on this is b/c my sister could have lived if she'd chosen to take care of herself better and she had a highly manageable problem (epilepsy, same as me).... so I am possibly talking with my head halfway up my intestinal tract.

Gentle consolation for the tragedy of your sister, Leo. I share the struggle with the suicide of an extremely troubled and abusive older brother. 32 years since he laid down beneath the tail pipe of a running car and it still plagues me. The worst part is that I see no tragedy in his death, either. His was a tragically damaged life.

I believe a 63 year old with a fresh Parkinson's (or whatever) diagnosis belongs in a different category. At 60, such possibilities are very real in my thoughts. My main reason for avoiding all those age-related tests is that I have no desire to be treated the way current medicine ethics handle these things. Please do not sentence me to decades in bed.

My fantasy is that when we are confronted with fatal and/or debilitating illness, people would quit trying to talk us out of the inevitable and begin the discussion of how the inevitable should be handled. Openly. Lovingly. Objectively.

Just a fantasy... The reality is that we either sign up for the decades in bed or we agonize through the decision alone. Are there no other choices?

Good fantasy, Arfie.
I share it.

When I was dx'd with epilepsy, it had to be discussed that way--- and wasn't.
So everything since? I make sure is discussed that way if possible.

I am sorry for your loss, Arfie. My sister, too, was profoundly damaged. but I'm one of those incurable optimists at heart---I always thought maybe she could've healed or something. Wishful thinking, but htat's me.

I've never understood the idea we must prolong life when it is an agony to do so. We don't do it to our pets, our farm animals, our rosebushes---but when Granny gets Alzheimer's, it's throw her into a room and keep her going to escape guilt and put off the grief, as far as I can tell (bitternes? Yes. It was never what my gran wanted but heaven forbid anyone listen to *her*....)

It's a touchy subject at best, but shouldn't be. Life *is* sacred, but that's why *death* should also be given the same thought and care, IMO. It's all part of the same cycle. And if we truly believe in the immortal soul, what's the problem? All very confusing to me.

Sorry, that became a journal entry but Muji *does* teach about death and dying--- he got me thinking. (See, Muji? Even off-duty you're teaching, LOL!)

All I know is---to feel that degree of despair? Is a terrible thing and no one should have to ever suffer it to that degree.... but I don't know how long Robin Williams had known of his dx, or suffered the disease, and that has a lot of effect on one's state of mind, and the possibility of help or hope.

I remember even my a-hole dad who despised suicide as cowardice? Took out a gun one day after his dx with terminal cancer and would have pulled the trigger if he wasn't afraid of going ot he**---odd position for an atheist, but that's another story.

I have a deep suspicion that muji is gathering material for his class. I say we give it to him. With all he contributes to this group, it would be the least we can do.

Unless, of course, I am going delusional again... Happens...

Oh, that devious wise white-bearded wizard of ours!!!

Personally, if I had a Parkinson's diagnosis, I'd want to make sure I had a way out once my quality of life deteriorated past a certain point. End-stage Parkinson's results in dementia, correct? I can't think of anything much more horrible than dementia.

I feel that way about several diagnoses.

So arfie wrote: " I have a deep suspicion that muji is gathering material for his class. I say we give it to him. With all he contributes to this group, it would be the least we can do.

Unless, of course, I am going delusional again... Happens... "

Then Leo replied: " Oh, that devious wise white-bearded wizard of ours!!!"

So I say: Guilty as charged, my friends. And you are so kind to help me. I wish I could have you come be guest speaker in my classes!!

Gracias, mis amigos.

no problem...
from the other side of this, my hubby contributed a thought on this as he read the paper... "if it was to spare his family, he should have let them say goodbye."
another thought for the bin

Your husband makes a good point, Leo--let the family say goodbye. Hmm. It occurs to me that Oregon has the only laws in the country allowing euthanasia. So as the illness advanced to a critical point concerning quality of life....I don't know. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it, and I guess I'm babbling.

As I'm processing this, I know we can't compare individuals'
experiences, but doesn't Michael J. Fox have Parkinson's? I think I saw him as a guest star on the tv show The Good Wife last season, and they wrote a script in which they made it part of the character he played. I can imagine Robin Williams making his Parkinson's part of his acting, too.

Oh, well. Still processing.

correct on all points, fox also testifies and advocates for research, etc.

A fave author of mine has A lzheimers and is open that he intends to have his life end at his will, while it is "his" to do so, so to speak, but he lives in the UK.... no assisted suicide or medically supervised there, either, so he plans to move to a nation that does allow it and make proper arrangements.

that, to me, makes the most sense, but then, i have lost my sis to sudden death, my dad to lingering, and at least with my dad, there was a chance to really grasp it before it was time to say goodbye. But there was also a last few weeks and days when our prayers were selfishly that he pass so we could be released, too.

as you can tell, a topic oft discussed between me and my mom,a s co mourners in both cases.

T iming is important too.... Williams had heart surgery a few years ago, and taht with career stress, addiction history....? a lot to adapt to at any stage of life, without that parkinsons dx.

prayers for his family.... a terrible thing for them in so many many ways, celebs cannot even be left to die without a frenzy to strip away the privacy of their family's pain.

So sad!