P and moan away, Arfie. You have *my* permission to feel okay, for what that is worth.

My P&moan?

The lawyer thinks my mom is a sure-fire loser if she challenges us on our asking her to move out.

Yeah, there's a "victory". I can beat Mom in court.

This is too effed up for me. I have a "good case". WTF? I should not need one against my *mom*.... She was easier when she actually drank the alcohol. He**, she was ten times easier. She just sat, drank, and that was it. One more low blow cheap shot and I'll... well, walk away, go to bed, scream in pillows, get up, and find some chocolate? Thpft.

I'm done on the Pi**y Pot.

*sprinkles in deodorizer*

That first line in your start to this thread gave me pause, arfie: "My journey from throw-away kid to throw-away grammy." It summarizes the entire lives of many of us here at DS PTSD, recovering from the abuse or neglect of being disposable people. Wow.

You deserve to feel good. Permission more than granted!

I was thinking...how would we know what "good" feels like, if life was a rollercoaster...I see tv shows that depict a normal...modern family...it does not compute in my brain. Arfie, you forming that bond with your grandson which both makes me smile and cry, because of the situation....worthy of grief over having a bond...a pure bond of love for an innocent.....I only know that kind of bond with my fur babies, I would neglect my own needs for them and that was how I learned to love at all....through their eyes to me..one on one....no body of people to dispute what I do or do not deserve...another revelation I had to learn, but feeling good still a work in progress....just rambling!! Hugs

Leo, Thirty-something years after I helped send my father to prison, I am utterly convinced that the nearest the world will see to a healing legal victory is the ones which are resolved out of court. Our "Just Is" system deals in vengeance far more than healing. A day in court means that a healing victory is not possible. Still looking for the "good" in that. . . Crying with you. . . Ouchy stuff. . .

Muji, Yes, all too many of us are familiar with the pains of having been thrown-away. And yet, we still have many discussions of whom we should dispose of from our own lives. . . Our own "Toxic People Landfill" contributions are noteworthy. . . Ouch. . . but. . . sigh. . . It is what it is, whether I understand it, or not.

Cheesecake, I started my throw-away kid life under TV family idols like The Cleavers, The Nelsons, Father Knows Best, etcetera, etceteri. Do "Normal" and "TV families" even belong in the same sentence? Real world families don't have script writers, retakes, producers, etc.

You put, "Modern Family" in the quotes like someone who has studied a bit of sociology. Are you literate on that academic controversy and it's descendant, "The Post-Modern Family?" It is one of my personal favorite nerd party debates. I find it almost as fun as debates attempting to define, "Normal."

Arfie, my family, for me is the daughter that Lucille Ball never knew she had..."I love lucy"....you know I just thought of something...that show has the word "Love" in it...,hmmm...another reason I watched it 3 times a day and soaked it in like a sponge. There is a saying on the Brain Injury board...."Normal" is a setting on a washing machine"...I would agree. I mentioned modern family because there seems to be so many commercials for it, but I avoid those shows, scripted, paid to say it people-pleasers ( sorry if someone likes the show/it's like nails on a chalkboard for me) I'm not even sure why except I was sucked into believing "maybe" the coast was clear once too often in early years only to get womped by alternate reality, actually that show "Third rock from the Sun" was far more relateable...there was no understanding or norm....it was made-up fiction...alien planet....make it up as you go...I get that concept easier!!

Arfie, this response may anger you and if it does I am sorry for that. I am just going to say what I have said before: there is a lack of communication here that is more toxic than anything else you or anyone else might have done.

After spending so very many years longing for reconciliation with and understanding from parents whose indifference and/or hostility was all too obvious, I know that your sons long for love and understanding among you. I know for sure (95% sure) that nobody wants to throw you away. I feel you tend to throw yourself away before other people get the chance to. That might look like abandonment and rejection to someone else! I don't know ...

You guys need a communication mechanism to handle the dynamics among you. Yes, you will probably blurt out hurtful things. Slapping the daughter in law was unacceptable. You are who you are, with a baggage train of hurt behind you. You need mechanisms to deal with it all. You need to be able to take a time out. There has to be way for people to register their hurt without it sending you away to another continent. You need some glue to tie all these pieces together so everything doesn't shatter every time you or someone else gets triggered.

You have a loving heart and you love your kids and your grandkids. You probably even have it in you to love your daughter in law.

So I am urging that you, as a family, not throw away all that love. I don't think you can work it out among yourselves without professional help. For all your skill with words, I don't think you can find or utter the words that will heal this situation. I think you need professional help. And I cannot believe that your husband, who loves you, can stand in the way of that. You are entitled to that, and he has to step up and support you in it. I repeat: you are entitled to that. You cannot work this out on your own, nor should you have to just accept and come to terms with this. Not without making a heroic effort to redress the matter. Throwing away all that love is a criminal waste, and it is breaking your heart.

Demand what you need, Arfie. You deserve that much. You do deserve it. You are entitled to it. You don't have to put your needs behind your husband's or your kids' *perceived* needs. As much as it is anathema to you to try to force others or insist upon anything, I think this is one case where you are entitled to do so and in the end it's to everyone's benefit.

Cheesecake, One of my tv family role models are the Beverly Hillbillies. I still wanna be Granny Clampet when I grow up. Almost there. . . My only personal rule in letting myself enjoy television, etc. is to remember that it is not real. Real life operates by a different set of rules.

I am plagued by many liberal arts academics in my multi-lingual personal life. Even married one. The Sociology Thread entitled, "Modern Family" is quite an academic show. It would be as fun as Pope Bashing if the academics of the era wore Roman Era costumes. Well. . . Guess it would help if folks other than the Liberal Arts Mega Nerds knew about it. Our clever putdown repertoire needs new blood. . .

Donna, Thank you for the accurate insights. If the opportunity presents, I will run your solutions up the family flagpole once more and see if anyone salutes this time. The ages of the other involved persons runs from 31 to 59. Participation is voluntary by law. I don't get to dictate. Wanna come give it a shot?

Hubs and I are holding our own. We are keeping our focus on our own affairs. Some days we think we might be able to pull off one or two of the retirement dreams we have worked for for so long. With or without the dreams, our retirement plan isn't financially endowed enough to include supporting middle-aged sons and their families. Whether we feel guilty about it, or not, we need to retire and our fixed income will not be able to handle the load. Thinking we shouldn't need to feel guilty about it. . .

Thank you for your wisdom, Donna. It really would be sweet if you could get the sons and DIL saluting.

Yes, slapping the DIL was wrong. I do not defend it. Rest assured that full and deliberate safeguards will be taken before I attempt sharing resources with her again. My combat training places extra responsibility on my shoulders in that regard. I am deeply ashamed for having committed that act of violence. No permission to feel good. . . Thank you for the reminder.

You didn't have to take it that way, Arfie. We all make mistakes and you're as entitled in that department as anybody else. If making a mistake, or acting on reflex or impulse means you're not entitled to ever feel good, then I guess none of us is entitled to feel good ever again. I sure as hell am not.

Just an FYI and to "come clean" so to speak...ahem...in the middle of the big fancy teaching hospital where I use to work, the predator guy who thought where a bunch of women worked was his personal playground, me included, he started an argument with me and in front of all my coworkers, I put my hands around his neck and said "I could kill you" and then I backed away fast stunned....to this day I do not know where that came from, it felt like it had happened before...to me??..I don't know...I have never talked that way. If it is somewhere deep inside me, I'm hoping it stays there or leaves whichever is better. Crap happens fast sometimes arfie...you are not alone!

My combat training doesn't allow me justifications on this score, Donna. Violence is violence, Donna. It is NEVER okay, not even with an arrogant tenant who is 7 months late on the rent and trashing the property. Even at 61, I know where the physical soft spots are. It takes surprisingly little strength to commit a lethal act of violence in a split second. No permission to feel good on this score.

However. . .

The DIL is not here. For now, at least, amends are not possible through her ice wall. Letting myself feel good about other things. Life goes on, even in The Toxic People Landfill.

Yes, actually, me mentioning that is a case in point. I shouldn't have. I am sorry.

No worries, Donna. I honestly believe the ". . .searching and fearless moral inventory" (Alanon, Steps Four and Ten) is a critical part of a sustainable recovery. Honest mistakes hurt less when I keep it them plain sight and do not attempt to justify them.

I love your compassionate, honest insights. I wouldn't censure them for the world. Thank you for being you in my life.

(((((((((((((((((((((donnawanda)))))))))))))))

Thank you, Arfie. I don't know ... but I could sure use the hug, so thank you!

And since you have encouraged me, I want to say this: it's true you can't force anyone or insist on anything. But you can press for it.

I would start with just your husband. You can say "I want to see a family counselor for support with what is going on with our family, and I want us to go together." He may say "No, you know I'm not into that." Then what? Okay, drop it because you can't force him? Or go on with something like this, "Yes, I know you're not into it, but I am asking you to make this sacrifice for me, because I believe it is important for all of us, and I really, really, really want some kind of resolution I can live with here and I don't see it happening. Do you understand that this situation is breaking my heart? And I want help with it." That's called pressing your case, and you're entitled to that much. I can't imagine any grounds for him to refuse you, and I know he loves you, so I don't believe he will. What I am worried about is you running away at the first hint of refusal/rejection and not feeling entitled to press for what you want and need.

I just hope if you get him there that you can find a truly competent and experienced family counselor. We went to one once - very nice guy, but no match for the pleasant-faced stonewalling my loved ones are expert at!

Hasn't worked so far, donna. I have tried it more than once in my 6 decades on the family dysfunction carousel and always seems to do more harm than good when I tried. Many hold my efforts to force solutions as a symptom of co-dependency. I agree.

"Example is not one way to influence others. It is the only way." ~Teddy Roosevelt, among others

I seem to get further tending my own therapy needs and trusting other folks to tend to theirs. It is amazing how often letting go of my preferred solutions makes room for solutions I never would have thought of on my own.