She's full of crap and in an anger stage are my gut reactions---because to me, I can't truly heal until I forgive. Applies to marital arguments, irritation with strangers who drive badly, whatever. Why hold onto it by not forgiving? Because by not forgiving---In My Opinion *only*----we never release the *anger* . And that means we're not releasing a lot that can lead us to react in anger to triggers, instead of with thoughtfulness.
I'm working hard on forgiveness. I can almost forgive my dad, but I can't figure out my sis enough to get there yet.

Error is human. Forgiveness is divine. So... gonna guess that like many humans if not all, she projects onto God what she wants God to be/do/say to confirm that she is Right. That she has no flaws requiring her to ask forgiveness herself, perhaps? I don't know. But I do know that for me, I can forgive without forgetting---and that the one thing I "forget" in forgiving is the anger and to some extent, the fear that comes from anger.

Just my thoughts.

You're not an idiot. You're someone who views the universe differently. So she's appearance-of-successful. So what? So was Bernie Madoff. Ken Lay. Ted Bundy. My sister. Doesn't mean a thing except that appearances aren't actuality.

Breathe deep and feel the warm purrs,
Leo

i spend a LOT of time with this quandary. for me "forgiveness" was the difference between understanding what WE Are responsible for and what They Were/Are responsible for. those out there that abuse in any way whether consciously or not are responsible for Their actions. I AM NOT! I/We need only be responsible for OUR actions/words/thoughts/life. so as we started learning to separate the two and really delve into the nature of human behavior it opened and understanding of why persons do what they do AND why we do what we do. i can forgive those on a level where they didn't and still don't understand their choices. however when they have past the point of obvious awareness i feel free to pass judgment of their actions (emphasis on actions. i always hope just a tiny bit for a turnaround. unfortunately there are those bad eggs you just hafta throw out.)

so i guess i can "forgive" ignorance sorta if they own up to it. but no reason to forget. understanding is not weak. letting go is not forgetting. refusing to stay a victim is a show of enormous strength AND intelligence AND wisdom AND self-love AND joy AND hope AND the kitchen sink disposal and all.

as far as the measure of success..... was there any joy in that woman's eyes? any faith? any peace? many of us here struggle yes, but i dare you, dearest muji, to find anyone else who can hold a candle to the love and care in your heart.

P.S. from personal experience- if she had not felt seriously threatened in some way she would have left it alone or at the very least met you in private. instead she took to public humiliation. sounds just a bit too control freaky too me. We are truly forlorn that this happened to you. she needs a reality check. -Kali & Legion

I've always thought that there's a fine line between genius and idiot anyway. Maybe you're a little of both! : )

You spoke in a church. Consider the target audience. How do you think Jesus would have reacted to both of your words. I think he'd love you both. You for having the spirit in your heart. Her, for needing it.

I think you should not judge yourself, OR her. Leave that to God.

Hugs.

Thanks for the kind words, folks. Still mulling it over. As Deli said so well, I am truly a bit of both. It's hard to figure out which one's speaking for me sometimes. It truly is an idiotic risk to speak at a church about what we talk about here.

Not everybody wants to hear it, and I'm not a perfect messenger by any means. I misspoke and slurred some of my words yesterday. I was tired and not on my toes--pretty much the condition I'm in all the time.

When someone doesn't want to hear it, it seems that they could just choose not to listen or to believe what's being said. But it seems there's a motivation beyond that to get me, myself, not to believe what I just said.

I think that's what we see in the point Deli raised about Jesus. In the case of the teachings of Jesus or any of the other great teachers in history, it seems to be what happens sometimes. Whether one of the greats or whether it's an old broken down man like me, some people just don't want to hear what heals. They would rather be cynical and say that's smarter.

I used to be too smart for my own good, too. Then it nearly killed me. Or actually, I was so smart I didn't want to go on living. I guess it's a lucky thing to be so desperate with PTSD that staying cynical for one more day would have made that day the last day of my life. But that's how I came to just keeping it simple and choosing to let go of some of the hatreds for my abusers. It really didn't take a lot of IQ to make that choice. It was my humbling moment, more like. I was choking on that hatred, and I literally couldn't breathe, you know?

If they're not looking for that humbling moment for themselves, I wonder why a person who has chosen cynicism would even go to church so much in the first place. It shows, I guess, what Deli said. Either a person in that mindset hopes church will confirm their cynicism, or deep down they need to shed it. But they want to fight with a non-cynic when one comes around first. As to volunteering for that, this old coot isn't up for that. Too old and tired to match wits with a smart young person as a guest on her turf. I'll leave that to God and God's servants who are more skilled than I am. Besides, the only cynicism I can handle is my own, not someone else's.

In the end, I guess cynicism is like alcoholism. To quit being addicted to it, you have to hit rock bottom and get to the point where you can't afford it any more. I did that when I went to the hospital in 2000. Beginning to let go is what got me out of the hospital. I don't have the world by the tail, but I haven't been back in the hospital since then.

It's not genius, really, to believe what I told them. It's just the truth as I know it from here in our talks on DS PTSD.

Oh Muji, you are not an idiot, and you are not a 'failure' either - you've had setbacks in your life because of past trauma. you are an inspiration to me - including because you've managed to let go the hatred for your abusers. I have not fully done that.
You are an inspiration for me, also in how you live your life. How you keep on keeping on, giving life as good a go as you can. I think you're a roaring success.
You have a good heart, and a good mind, and you utilise both - in your work and in your private life.
I think it's terrific that you got up in front of a whole church to talk about your experience - shows courage.
Just because this woman was well dressed and well spoken - don't let that intimidate you, it's all surface crap, doesn't count for anything.
You, Muji, are the real deal. take care, wendy

"To forgive is divine".... It also releases you from the power of your tormenter...
Once you've forgiven they no longer have the same power over you... She doesn't understand that and you do now muji

I go back and forth with it... Sometimes I believe I have forgiven and let go of the anger and now and then it creeps back in..

She just doesn't get it and it's her loss... However maybe your words will get through to even one person....Get them thinking about the amazing possibility of letting go of hate and pain... What a wonderful gift you would be giving to that person...

I wonder why that woman would feel so strongly about you letting your pain go... Does she protest to much??.... Does it have anything to do with you at all?
Or could it be something from within that she struggles with?...Just a thought

Big hug for you sweetie...xo

It sounds to me shes a vindictive person. Forgiveness for me was a no brainer, it released me from being a slave to my own anger. Like many here you possess that higher intelligence since you understand life and understand what feelings to hold on to and feelings to release since you know they don't serve you. You also understand the discipline and the hard work it takes to achieve forgiveness since it's a crawling struggle to reach it. Yet you been there, you done it. Not everyone will "get it" or understand, but you have in order to improve your quality of life. An Honourable trait, from a Honourable man...

OH MUJI,
I'm sorry you felt this way. This woman is full of anger, that's apparent. Just because she presented herself as the "ALL KNOWING ONE", (and obviously she's not, because only GOD IS), and that she spoke with authority means nothing. Some of the most sinister people are so convincing and conniving and manipulative.

The Bible tells us "to forgive". I would have asked her, "then do you not believe in God's words in the Bible?" If HE asks us to forgive and you say you cannot, then are you not saying, 'I don't believe in God's word'??? That's the bottom line. It's her faith in question NOT YOU in question. What do they say about the devil wearing many disguises? Even in a congregation with a supposed faithful member, the enemy (and I hate that term btw but don't know how else to say), can plant doubt in the mind of believers and this is what it looks like happened, imho.

I am positive that the congregation saw right through her obvious lack of faith in not trusting God's words and his commandment to us to "forgive others as we forgive ourselves". I'm so sorry that happened to you. You are such a sweet, dedicated man. People will see her true character, not to worry. And, they will know that you are the true man of God that represents the TRUTH as it is supposed to be. Blessings and Prayers your way!
JP

Thanks, everybody. Kind words again. I just want to add that the young woman wasn't the only person who spoke to me after the talk. Another woman came to me privately and said she had a former hospital chaplain, which I was too, as a meditation teacher. And that her teacher was teaching her the power of forgiveness.

So I'll tell you what I told her back. I thank you all for calling it honorable, but I have to tell the truth like I told her: I did it very selfishly. I didn't forgive anybody for their sake. I did it for my own sake, to save myself from that bitter dead end. The fact that it was honorable or good to them was really a by-product of a selfish decision, in my case. Life's just too short, and those who hurt me got plenty of it already, so I can't waste more time on them if I want to live for me now.

Mind you, my abusers know how to hold a grudge. How to keep score and remember every slight in detail. Whenever you're around them they repeat them ad nauseum word for word, from decades ago. That's how I was raised to be.

But I'm the family screw up, see, and I'm too lazy and selfish to work that hard on a grudge and give a damn. It's just boring and no fun for me. In my family's eyes, I'm just dumb and shallow that way. I'm childish to them. An idiot. A real man would settle a score.

So I guess that's why the young woman's response got my attention. It reminded me of my family's attitude toward how I don't seem to mature when it comes to settling scores. I'm a childish dreamer.

Actually, it's just like I said. I'm not good at it, and it burnt me out so badly I ended up in the hospital on suicide watch back in 2000. Some hold a grudge skillfully and don't get burned by it. I don't have that skill, and I'm the first and often the only one that gets burned by holding a grudge. So I'd better not keep it long. That burning smell you sense is me on fire from my own hatred. I have to let it go because I'm on fire, not because I'm holy. Forgiving, then, for me is an act of selfish self preservation, not just altruism.

Anybody else forgive selfishly like me?

Hell Yah! I should have added that. Forgiveness for me has nothing to do with those who did me wrong, it's more like forgiving myself for becoming/embracing their hate. Yet an understanding of those who done me wrong presents itself once I shed that anger and hate.

Yes, I have selfishly forgiven my mother.
I have been sober just over 9 years and have had to learn to let go of my " resentments" so I can continue to stay sober. I almost drank the day I got out of treatment because my father laid into me about what a failure I was, expletive, expletive...terrible person, etc.
I had to forgive my mother for the years of abuse I suffered with her as the perpetrator and supporter of my brother inflicting physical, mental, emotional abuse every single day. It took me redoing that forgiveness every year for several years and then some recent events I will need to forgive as I finally severed my relationship with my family entirely. I know I won't move on until I do this and I've been putting it off.

So, yes, I have selfishly forgiven many including my ex-husband that was very abusive. Now I just feel sorry for him that he is so spiritually bankrupt. The same goes for my mother, father, brother...spiritually bankrupt.

Not much I can add to what others have said here, Muji ...a couple of high fives.
Many times I look at your post and feel blessed, and inspired.

If i forgive them...
I let them go.
It is good for me, absolutely.
I do think in the end, tho', it's good for *them*---maybe it counts in the divine accounting? I don't know. Maybe I'm rationalizing selfishness.

Whatever the case, Muji, know that this woman does not believe "real" men "settle scores". Remember Jesus in the garden when Peter took up a sword to fight. Who was the "real" man there? No doubt for me, lousy ex-Catholic that I am. Not Peter.

My dad's fam is gold medal Olympian style in the categorry of Grudge Holding, too. I never do see the point. Grudges are chains that hold us to things we find toxic. When we release the grudges, we release *us*---and maybe them, too.... after all, they're part of our pattern, but we're part of *theirs*.... I personified my sister's sense of worthlessness and non-value, so she beat me down --- she personified it to me, so I ran/hid from her when I didn't try standing up ---

Getting too metaphysical for me. On four hours of sleep to boot. But...

Breaking patterns is how we make new ones.

Deli is right about not judging, but it is good to try to understand, to me, to sort out where we may be causing a problem or why we're seen to be causing one.

Gentle wishes,
Leo

It seems to me that "forgiveness" is about THE most divisive topic in PTSD -- particularly when it comes up on this forum.

Meaning ... there's clearly no right and no wrong answer.

It's whatever works for you.

She was /awfully/ dogmatic ("overly certain about matters of opinion").

I tend to steer very clear of that sort.

It wasn't you, Muji.

Muji you said "But I'm the family screw up, see, and I'm too lazy and selfish to work that hard on a grudge and give a damn. It's just boring and no fun for me. In my family's eyes, I'm just dumb and shallow that way. I'm childish to them. An idiot. A real man would settle a score. "

That was the training brainwashing you received.
I heard it too. But the forgiveness I have been able to do since being here is for myself. The blame shame I feel at being the victim, the thoughts that I had anything to do with their choices.
The belief that in the here after all their illusions of control will be answered.
I was like that woman when I came here, just the word riled me. I would not ever give them a free card of forgiveness. Then after many posts comments from those here, forgiving the blame/shame I put on myself is what turned the corner. I am not their final judge.
I can only be the best for me and those around me. It doesn't make me any less cautious, but it allows me to experience new people as they are and decide to include or not, by trusting my feeling a bit. I examine those feelings to make sure I am not only seeing them in the eyes of that abused girl, or the woman I am.

Hugs she is still fighting her own memories from somewhere...who know down the road she may reconsider when just because yo brought it out, she can see and examine it.

Let go and let God( insert deity, Creator), is sometimes the only answer that works, so we can move forward.