jenny, I learned that about my dad, what you wrote, I mean: "I legitimately am dealing with a person unable to show empathy." For the longest time I thought I wasn't being clear in communicating with him about what I needed. I turned myself inside out to get him to show me empathy.

Then I found out he was as you describe, just "unable." I'd thought he was withholding empathy, or punishing me, a lot of things. Then it turned out that, for a lot of reasons that didn't have to do with me, he was just "unable."

I have a sister, too, who wasn't able to help me process it, either.

Eventually, my dad's being "unable" got him into big trouble in his workplace and he got thrown out of a professional career he'd had for 30 years. He was "unable" to understand what had happened there, and ended up mowing lawns for a living for the 8 years until he was eligible for Social Security retirement.

Call me a fool, but I still loved him, though by then I felt sorry for him. But he was a shell of a man by then. Being "unable" like that, just speaking from my own experience, turned out not just to be hard on me as his child. When I was a kid I could never have imagined it, because it seemed to work for him, but in the end being "unable" like that ruined life for him most of all.

I know what it feels like for you to weigh your decision you mention as the question before you of how much you're willing to subject yourself to for family. It's good to be validated, but then it leaves you with that, and that's a tough one. Lots of support to you from me as you weigh your options. It's a lot to think about.

I will validate that "Wrong" feeling, too. It's a big change that is bound to have some kinks to work out. To my senses, different typically does feel "Wrong" and continues feeling "Wrong" until I identify and work out those kinks. Where's the owner's manual for this crazy thing called, "Life?"

Congrats on the good. Feed it well. Trust the good to lead the way through working out the kinks.

I think we subject ourselves to it because they are our moms and we want them to accept us and work it out no matter what. I think your therapist was validating and also gave you good, although difficult advice. I have had to do much the same with my mom. I had to train her as best I could and ultimately accept it and take care of myself with boundaries.

I am glad it feels good, sorry it feels wrong but I get it.

I understand Jenny, that feeling of being validated & feels good & wrong at the same time.
Sending you support & gentle hugs <3

Congrats on going to counseling with your mother. I'm sure that it couldn't have been easy.

Maybe the question shouldn't be how often you're going to subject yourself to her...as much as...

How much contact can you have before it starts to impact you negatively?

Your first priority is your own children. Raising kids, in the best of circumstances, isn't easy. And you've got some extra challenges. While I'm really not for cutting off all contact (I can't imagine not knowing if my kids were alive or dead), that doesn't mean that you need to have constant contact in order to do that.

Maybe start with how often you're in contact now? If it's daily...maybe instead make it twice a week...or something like that. The world won't end if you don't reply to a text/email/phone call right away. If you're in contact weekly, maybe try twice a month...and then see how you feel?

I don't know. But you've got my full support as you figure it out. Patti

My relationship with my mother always confused me before I realized that she was emotionally abusive. I had an addiction that caused me to share WAY too much information about my personal life hoping for validation, love, and support. Accepting that I’ll never get that helped me move on. But it took a major traumatic event caused by her for me to do that. Now as a mother I hope and pray that I don’t do that to my children. Sometimes I miss the relationship that I had with my family before I became aware of what was going on but I can’t deny my own personal growth and healing. My life now does not require validation from them.

Im sending love and positive vibes to you!!! ❤️

i think i am trying to do what Doo said, training my mother, myself too - and it is very difficult. worth it though. you are worth it. so good to hear you have a validating counselor and one who sees what's what.

Wow, that's a lot! ... Hugs and support.

Hugs jenny.

Lilly and dooo I asked the counsellor how people like us step out of the role our families have designed for us and she said the best way to do that is through boundaries and just not responding the way we typically would respond in the past. I know 2 years ago it finally clicked that I would be baited and respond angrily then whatever triggered the response from me was forgotten and the focus was my response itself. Oh look how angry she is, she's this and she's that, never hey, maybe she was legitimately hurt and if we validated that she wouldn't respond the way she does. Now I'm seeing that no matter what I say it won't be respected, that it takes a perfect stranger to mediate our conversations for me to be taken seriously. It's friggin crazy making and placating others so as not to rock the boat feels wrong and not being able to articulately explain myself feels wrong so it's a between a rock and hard place type of deal. No winners just a bunch of wounded losers, myself included.

Everyone else who responded thank you for th3 support and validation as well as saying what's working for you. Continued support to you guys as well, family can suck sometimes that's for sure.

Yep, setting boundaries was what I did. Boy was that hard at first. I got a lot of backlash and temper tantrums from mom but eventually she learned I would not put up with it and if she wanted me to respond it had to be with her respecting that boundary. The rest was up to me in how I handled my own self. She had a tendency to throw my things away or steal them. That is another story in itself. Anyhoo, I had to lock up all my things in my bedroom including my own fridge. I totally get what you are saying in how we respond etc. That is hard!!! Good luck to you :)

Hi! I feel for you!
You can't really let go-EVER!! Unless,you're willing to take the most agonizing(and gut wrenching) step of all!!!
This step is: grieving. You have to grieve for the little girl you once were,the woman you are now, and the woman you are transforming into. You have to grieve for the hopes,dreams,and prayers that that little girl prayed for(and dreamed of) deep in her soul(in regards to the mother who gave birth to her)and that her conscious mind longed for SO badly!! You have to grieve for the woman you are,and are transforming into, because they too still do what the little girl once did. You have to grieve for the mother that you NEVER had,the mother that you ALWAYS wanted, the mother you have ALWAYS believed you deserved, needed, and wanted but NEVER got, and the mother that you actually have.
In doing this, starting this journey, you will get to a point where you realize that the mother that you ALWAYS deserved,needed, and wanted resides within you and has been within you all along just waiting to be seen, acknowledged, embraced, accepted, and made peace with!!
Until you do this NO boundary you make will be able to be kept for long! Your progress will,also, stall(in regards to your physical mother).
I know ALL of this because I too have a toxic mother! I am still going through this process BUT I've made progress and that wouldn't have happened had I NOT started this process! Because,in regards to my mother, I had to learn this truth the hard way!!
Also, if your mother is ANYTHING like mine, when you do get to the point in your own process and recovery where you can set boundaries and can make them stick brace yourself,have someone(who backs you 100%) with you(for the first confrontation,at least), have affirmations at the ready, and have your therapist on speed dial!
Your mother,if she's anything like mine, will throw a tantrum,the abuse will escalate(might not OR might become physically dangerous), she'll campaign even worse than before against you, and generally do EVERYTHING in her power(and use every weapon in her arsenal) to take you,break you down,and make you be a part of her universe once more. Starting the grieving process is essential in that,when you get to the point where you've been able to truly embrace the mother within yourself and allow that mother to give to you what this mother NEVER did-that provides an individual with a strength that that individual has NEVER before experienced!! It's beyond words to describe the strength one gains from that and the feeling of empowerment that one gains as well!
Does it mean that you'll NEVER struggle with your mother issue again? Does it mean that everything will be a bed of roses? HELL NO!!
Especially if you maintain contact with her there will be times where you slip up or out right fail BUT,as long as you NEVER permanently give up, you will continue to make progress in both your grieving and healing journey! It's worth it!!!
Also, if you have children break off contact with your mother as soon as you have enough strength to. Don't let your children have contact with her!! She'll just end up damaging them as badly as she has you or worse!
I know this first hand.
Example: My mother,amongst the many abuses she endured,was parentification. Her mother believed that it was her right to do to her granddaughter what she had done to her daughter! This is just one of the horrors that my grandmother perpetrated and my mother allowed because she was too busy trying to earn her mothers' love,affection,and approval!! I call it a generational curse!
Please don't do this to your children! What I mean by that is don't put your mother first and your children last!! If you have children you are more obligated to them than your mother!!
Best of luck to you and lots of hugs