I missed your intro, so ...forgive me, but ... has every other possible ("medical") cause been ruled out ???

Like ... *for example ....* seizures ?

My best friend has a little girl who has "episodes" that -- to me -- might look like dissociation, but ... in her case ... there's a "more traditional" medical cause that was diagnosed by a pediatric neurologist.

Not that any of these is good, but ... getting the right diagnosis surely seems important.

I wish you ... AND her ... peace, HEALTH, and strength :-)

Dd was sexually abused for years. She started working through this trauma about 7 months ago, It is definitely dissociation. Our other daughter does it as well, but not to this extreme.

I am hoping that someone who has maybe been through this can share what we might expect and if anything helped. Will it eventually dissipate in severity and frequency or is this something she will struggle with for life?

once the brain learns the skill of dissociating, it will often continue to use it even when it is no longer required...it becomes a "drug of choice", if you will.

medication can help some symptoms, but usually is most effective when accompanied by therapy.

If you want to work on healing trauma and reduce (losing time; aka hard switching) symptoms, then most people need a skilled therapist that specializes in trauma work.

severe dissociation (losing time) and self harming are two common reasons why people seek therapy....so the sooner you can get her started, the safer she will be.

healing is journey not a destination in my experience.

I was abused from 7 to 14 in various situations by different people, but when I was 12 I was held captive for a few weeks by 2 guys; disassociation helped me endure what was happening - or it protected me from the aspects of the abuse that I couldnt handle otherwise. I was drugged when they abused me at night, but it turned out to be more than that since it continued to happen later.

After being released from that situation, I was then befriended by or "visited by" friends of those guys, and again I disassociated when things became too painful or too scary for me to experience otherwise. I think my mind learned that its easier to disassociate in the presence of a stressful situation that I couldn't or didn't want to deal with as a child, but once it was turned on, I couldn't turn it off.

I am in my 30's now, and when my business partner (who is emotionally abusive to me) starts yelling at me about something I supposedly did wrong, I disassociate. He can tell I am disassociating (he has some knowledge of my childhood) and it just makes him angrier because he sees it as me ignoring him. Ever since my childhood, any time I am in a situation that I cannot emotionally handle, I disassociate to some degree.

Here is a distinction to what you describe about your daughter and what I experience: I am aware of what is going on when I disassociate; I feel disconnected from my current reality when I am disassociated, I am aware of what is happening to me, I interact in a minimal way, but I feel almost nothing; its like my mind turned off my emotions and weakened all of my senses it turns reality into something more like an emotionless daydream.

There are times from my childhood where I have clear memory of some events up until the point where the abuse turned violent or painful then I lost all memory from that point on; I think that is completely different from disassociation and that doesnt happen to me as an adult.

You say She is losing large chunks out of most days; that does not sound like disassociation to me. Another thing that makes me think it is not disassociation: There should be something that causes the dissociative episode, such as me getting yelled at by my business partner. What is triggering her episodes? In my experience and to my knowledge, disassociation is a defense mechanism to protect us from overwhelming events happening to us in the present. I do not have a dissociative episode while I am having an otherwise nice peaceful non-stressful day, something traumatic must happen to me to trigger a dissociative episode. I do not lose the time that passed during the dissociative episode, I am just not nearly as emotionally traumatized by what happened during that time since the experience was filtered by my mind to make it bearable.

I could be wrong, however I strongly suspect that disassociation is not the cause of the lost time. Seizures can cause lost periods of time as someone else mentioned. Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka multiple personality disorder) can cause lost time like you describe, but I dont think that is the case since the abuse did not start until age 5 or 6 (normally abuse starting at just a few years old can cause DID). I am sure there are other physiological and neurological conditions that can cause this. It is highly likely that she does have dissociative episodes due to the abuse, but I suspect that the one daughter also has an underlying physiological or neurological condition that is being mistaken for disassociation.

I would ask her therapist or doctor if the lost time can in fact be from dissociative episodes, and ask specifically if there could be an underlying psychological, physiological or neurological cause for the lost time. Please look into this since you may have been overlooking something that needs to be addressed..

I am not an expert and I am only drawing my conclusions from my own experience with disassociation and what I learned on DS and from my therapist and psychiatrist, but I believe that disassociation alone is not the cause.

Thanks for the replies. Can't remember what I have given as background to our situation. I am working through my own childhood abuse with a trauma specialist, as are our two daughters. Our youngest daughter disclosed 9 months ago that her brother had sexually abused her from the age of 6, possibly 5. It was extreme, frequent and happened for about 4 years. He also abused our other daughter, but not quite to the same extreme.

We don't have a lot of choice in counsellors here. We are using the rape crisis centre and they really are good. The girls have been assigned counsellors who work mostly with children and have years of experience.

Our oldest dd has seen psychologists (none of which she has any rapport with), a psychiatrist, our gp and social workers. Her counsellor and best friend have helped her the most. She spent 6 weeks last year in a special psychiatric facility for adolescents.

Last week we had some stressful situations in our family and school had a high workload. She is not sleeping well. As you know, this means it takes less to trip the body into overload. From what dd described there was one day in particular where she battled most of the day to not zone out. She tried desperately to stay grounded. In the end it was a boy brushing past her that triggered the episode. By the time I got to her an hour later she was very spaced out, shaky, wouldn't let go of me.

She spends a lot of time in a fog, unable to remember what she has just read, unable to concentrate to do homework, unable to remember what we just said. She loves playing piano and often comes out to play. Last year she reached the point where she wouldn't touch it, but not it is a source of joy. She also loves her dancing. It is the one thing she really looks forward to in her week.

I don't want to pry. If she wants to talk that's fine. She has to be willing. Her mind is so foggy a lot of the time that she can't think straight and can't remember what you just told her. I think this is what she means by losing chunks out of each day - she can't absorb or retain input. She gets triggered into a flashback by sights, smells, touch etc..

School is a new environment for her (we home schooled up till this year), but she is loving it. She is being grabbed multiple times a day (in a friendly way and all the kids do it, but for her it's a stress point). She has had a boy touch her inappropriately but doesn't know who.

Dd is loathe to get put onto another medication or see another psychologist. I do have the name of a good psychiatrist, so maybe that's our best shot at help she would accept. Her last counselling session she just sat there unresponsive. The counsellor almost called an ambulance. I'm hoping that she doesn't do this today at her next session. It's scary as a mum to see this happening and not know what to do. Holding her, being available to listen and reassuring her don't seem like enough. It's like you have a gaping wound and are using band aids to stem the bleeding.

Hope this fills in some gaps.

That helps put it into context... Im sorry to hear how she is doing, it reminds me of my early days in therapy. Currently still I am easily triggered into a deep depression, I think that is more likely what is happening to her than disassociation. Sometimes if I hear a song on the radio from the 1980's (when my abuse began) or I encounter some other subtle trigger , I can go from emotionally stability to severe depression in seconds.

When I am depressed, I often get "lost in my thoughts" and ignore everything else that is going on around me. It isn't disassociation, for me it is depression caused by obsessive or intrusive thoughts. The end result might be the same as disassociation (detachment), but the psychological mechanism that causes it is very different.

To put it another way: I dont lose touch with reality to protect myself from emotional/physical trauma (disassociation); my emotional trauma playing over and over in my mind causes me to lose touch with the rather harmless reality I am currently facing (getting lost in my depressive obsessive thoughts). Both situations cause a very detached person who at best looks like they are daydreaming..

Does that make sense to you, could that possibly be what is happening?

I guess I should mention that I am mildly autistic; that makes my reactions to emotional trauma a little different than most and I have a different perception of people and the world in general; I tend to obsess about things (which makes those depressive days much harder to deal with), but I think the overall effect of the abuse is similar (autistic or not), I was just easier to abuse than most kids... I just thought you should understand my viewpoint since I didnt mention it, and my profile is private due to the nature of what happened during my childhood.

I think it is a combination of things with depression being a major component coupled with anxiety and dissociation. She is on meds for the depression, but I know that it's not an instant cure and works better at times depending on what else is happening in your life.

A change of environment would help, but that's not an option right now. Will see about getting away in a month's time to a beach and just chill.

Our son who committed these crimes is on the autistic spectrum, so I am very familiar with struggles to read social situations, body language etc. He struggles to fit in anywhere. I have had no contact with him since our daughter disclosed and am not sure that I ever will. It is the hardest decision a mother has to make.

Autism isn't an excuse like some people try to imply.... I may unintentionally hurt someones feelings or make other "mistakes" of that nature, but I know right from wrong - I was a very naive child (autism making it worse), but I knew that what was being done to me was wrong even before I understood what it was...

Im sorry that your son did this, I dont know what part autism had in it, but I can say from my perspective that although I do accidentally offend people and I do other similar subtle things like that, I have the same understanding of right and wrong as anyone else. If there are intellectual deficits involved, then autism could be a factor.

I was intentionally handed over to an abuser by a parent; to this day I dont know how a family member can do something like that, and I dont know how to feel about it. I understand your conflict and I dont think there is a correct or incorrect way to react to a situation like yours. You are protecting your 2 daughters and yourself, thats how I see it from here..

As long as the brother is out of the house. She is at an age where a structured day is helpful? You have already made hard decisions as a mother, but her need for a therapist is a structure that should be left to her. Even if she can't say the words, while she is there she knows the reason, so she's probably thinking about it. For her therapy now is way better than therapy later. There is another thing about the dance and piano, connection, You said your son was autistic, music and movement may have been what made him connect/want her. If she feels that is a contributing factor, I would totally understand her dis-interest in them for her now, even if she liked them. They would have become a attached action to his.

As a girl I cut my hair because of the mention of how pretty it was during acts. Hacked would be a better description, hoping that would make it not make them come to me.

I meant should NOT be left to her.

Having faced PTSD, disassociation, psychosis I think most of these issues will arise in no certain order.

I have faced sexual abuse from several entities, including my own father.

But it is very very difficult for parents to thread through all that. Because when children grow up their mental and physical states are being altered. Meaning, they often behave in ways that are not appropriate. I myself have always questioned that but now truly believe that when parents witness such inappropriate behavior they have to firmly, but gently step in.

Children when growing up will do many silly things, out of curiosity and often just to experiment too. It takes very diligent parents to see the many different developments that need to be stopped. My parents either ignored it or simply decided not to put a stop to it, because they were embarrassed about the facts of life.

Then there are always differences in each case. So many different scenarios that could then only be sorted out by a professional, to really understand what happened.

I remember several occurrences when being a young child, and to this day believe that if I would have been the parent I would have immediately reacted, but without shaming the child.
That is what most parents are afraid of I think.
They see their curious children do things that should not be continued, they react in two ways: 1. ignore it. 2. react so harshly that they immediately shame their child into lifelong problem behaviors.

Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and I would be the parent and handle the situations that my parents did not handle correctly.

If one is a parent and has several children of different genders, one has to recognize the possibility of certain behaviors as they grow older.
Children will often act as if they are small adults, practice for adulthood? Who knows. Or they notice their physical changes, their wants and their needs. They do not know any better that it is not right to act on such wants and needs with whoever is the closest.
Children have to be gently taught that such relationships are in the latter part of their lives, not before.
When you look around you see that with very young people everywhere. They have wants and needs that they fulfill with whoever is the closest.
I think brothers and sisters do that too. But most parents gasp and do not try to understand why things happen. Often when taking a child aside and explaining to them how they develop, what to expect, and that they have to treat others, friends, relatives, sisters, brothers in different ways, then those children actually have a chance to grow up normal.
I truly believe that the fear simply paralyzes most parents that if they see their children do something that they don't know how to fix they often give up without trying.
But when taking a child aside, maybe many times, and simply explaining that they are going through normal phases, just they should not react to them in certain ways, well then the parents and children would be much better off.
It is almost as if parents are afraid of such notions themselves.

I was re-reading your prior message and I realized that you said that your daughter was home-schooled until this year. Being someone with Autism, I know very well how changes in your daily routine cause stress Transitioning from a lifetime of being home schooled to attending public school seems to be something that would be stressful for her on its own.

You said School is a new environment for her .. but she is loving it. Your next sentence: She is being grabbed multiple times a day (in a friendly way and all the kids do it, but for her it's a stress point). She has had a boy touch her inappropriately but doesn't know who. To me it doesnt sound like she is loving it, and I recall my own difficulties in the same exact situation. There was a girl who really liked me during the 8th grade, and although I was actively being abused by a group of people during the 8th grade, I liked the girl and wished she could be my girlfriend. Every time there was a situation where she would touch me in any way (holding hands or arm around my shoulder nothing sexual), I would have a panic attack. I dont know if this is the same for everyone who is in that situation, but for me every time she would touch me in even the most innocent way, all I could feel were my abusers hands and it brought back that gross nasty feeling every single time. I literally freaked out inside and often I had to walk away without explanation and hide somewhere thats how much it bothered me..

I am not sure of your daughters age since I dont recall it being mentioned, but you said she was in an adolescent psychiatric facility, so she must be in her teenage years. School is a stressful place for many teenagers, and for one who was home-schooled and just moved to public school, it is probably very stressful, adding to this the abuse she is just starting to deal with, I am not surprised that she is barely functioning.

I dont know if you mentioned why you moved her to public school, perhaps changes in your home made it no longer possible for you to home-school her, but if there was an option for her to remain home-schooled I would think it would be a lot less stressful for her. If you are unable to home-school her, perhaps a private school that has much more structure could be an option? Placing her into a public school is probably more than she can handle right now. Every time a boy touches her could be a major trigger, even casually or accidental touching could cause it. I just think that school is a major stressor for her.

I could be wrong about school, I am looking at it from an autistic point of view, but the things you chose to mention about school are all very bad things. Does she really love school, or do you hope she does? If she says she loves school, is she telling the truth? She was able to hide the abuse all these years, her saying she loves school and saying it convincingly doesnt mean much I would tell my mother anything but the truth when she asked me about what we did when I spent time with XXXX or XXXXX, I was good at hiding the truth about what was really happening to me when I was with them. If I wanted to convince my mother I was enjoying school (even though I wasnt), that wouldnt have been a problem. My point is that I cannot see how your daughter could be handling school very well given all the circumstances and your statements make me question if she really loves school.

I wonder if school is a major cause of why she isn't doing so well right now?

Dd has been wanting to go to school since she was 9 and cried time I said "no" and explained why, little realising the terror she was living with each day. She is very much a people person and thrives on competition. She genuinely does want to be at school. There are a lot of triggers at home as every room has triggers for her. I know in my heart that home schooling is no longer an option for either of my daughters. Due to my own issues with ptsd school is a better environment for them. They are in a coed Catholic school which we have a lot of respect for. They were brilliant in helping our son (the perpetrator in all this, but we didn't know at the time).

Yes school has a lot of triggers and added stress, but it's the right thing. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Moving house will be the best thing but that is taking a long time to sort out as we are struggling to get approvals for our house so that it is ready to put on the market. Hoping that something will give this week.

Dd had a counselling session yesterday and was sent straight to the hospital to be reassessed. I fell apart so dh had to go with her. I find this side of things too overwhelming and confronting. It scares me big time. All they did was give her valium for a few nights to settle her down. She has been referred back to the adolescent mental health team and should be reviewed by the psychiatrist there this week, most likely having her anti-depressants either increased or changed. I am seriously considering a guided imagery audio someone else has suggested.

I need to look at sleep for myself or I'm only going to go downhill even more this week. It's been a battle zone of mind for years.

I'm glad to hear that it is a private school, I recommended that in my message since I thought it was public school she was in. I was moved from public school to private school when my parents put my in psychiatric care when I was 10 (they totally missed the problem) and moved me to a private school (for a year anyway), it was a lot easier in a private school - so its a relief to hear that is where she is.

Perhaps she does need a change in medication, I wouldn't be surprised since these medications work differently or not at all on different people - I changed medications over and over again until they found something that worked.

For most antidepressants it is not known how they even work, most were originally drugs for other uses and it was noticed that people taking them for the original use became less depressed. Since it is unknown how many of the psychiatric drugs even work (what the kinetic action in your brain is that makes the mood change), its hard to know how each person would react to them - so its often a trial and error process.

You sound like a very strong person, I hope you can stay strong and your PTSD doesn't affect you much - you are dealing with a lot and it sounds like you are doing well so far.... I'm not sure of your religious preference (Catholic is a guess due to the school), but sometimes prayer is the only other thing we can do, and trust that God will see you thru this. A pastor at a church I used to attend often said: "God, in my weakness, let me be strong in Your strength". This isn't a religion group so I will leave it at that, but we are all here to help when you need.. Be strong : |