I've heard that suicide is a sin. I've been told it is a matter of interpretation of the Bible. I looked and looked but couldn't find a specific reference to killing one's self being a mortal sin.

As for the coward's way out, that has more to do with soldiers in battle than anything else. As I understand it, people who knew they were going to be killed in battle and wanted to take control of when they died were considered cowards who were not brave enough to face the possibility of a very painful death inflicted by someone else.

I think death is equated with eternity and since people can't understand either of those concepts because we have nothing to compare them to, we get scared. The only issue I have is that measuring time is a physical function of the brain that can be interrupted by anesthesia which is why people don't remember time passing when they sleep or when they are under during surgery..

I know I have found my way and I know I can't explain it. It affects every part of my life including every decision I make. I choose to be the way I am and to live the way I do. I have really good conversations with my 4 and 5 year old nieces and nephews about this. They "get it" for lack of a better term. Kids are awesome. They have no fear of anything and they really don't hate anything either. I guess nobody taught them about fear or hate yet...or they didn't pay attention to that lesson.

I personally think it's wrong to kill yourself. But it's also not my place to judge; that's God's job.

As for the coward's way out, I think suicide occurs when the individual cannot get past the past and present to have ANY hope that the future may get better. OR, that they have nobody to live for; true or perceived.

I was VERY down at various points in my life, but I'm still here. By some force, I was able to see myself out of it. Call it God's grace, by daughter, or just being that darn stubborn that I didn't want someone else to have the last laugh.

It also gets pretty deep when it comes to a terminal illness. Is euthanasia a different situation than suicide from mental anguish?

I think it would be interesting to put up a survey on Survey Monkey, have your students take the survey at the start of that unit and then afterward, just to see if there's a paradigm in anybody. What papers do you have them write on the topic?

So interesting!

i have to refer to my first nations roots in this matter.

in the times before colonization, the elders (and the nagual, of course) would come to realize that they are at the end of their time, and would throw a massive, festive celebration and three-day feast for their tribe and loved ones, and then walk out into the bush never to be seen alive.

this is FAR MORE appealing to me than slowly aging, becoming decrepid and hooked up to machines, losing functions one by one, living in hospice or end care in hospital.

nope. not me. i promise you that. baring any accident, i will chose my time, and the thought does not trouble me at all.

the problem with 90% of suicides is that they go out broken, and beaten, and crying. that is not the way to leap into the dream.

I don't think it has anything to do with being a coward. I agree it is about ending the pain and it is usually something considered after a very long time of trying to find other solutions. I also don't think it is about causing pain for loved ones. It maybe at times. Ex: the man who invited his son, daughter in law and young grandson to spend the week with him then shot himself. (Hunter S Thompson). Now there is a selfish bastard.

Now for the sin part. I am not a believer anymore but I used to be. Completely and totally. Even then I didn't believe it was a sin. I believed God would understand. I believed he felt our pain as if it was his own. If anything it would bring him sadness, not anger. In death we would be healed. The bible ( my opinion only) was interpreted in large part to keep anglo saxon men in control as well as instilling fear. Again as control. Anyway....not here to debate that stuff. I don't have the energy for that today and I'm fine with others finding strength where they may ( tangent)

In brief: Muji, I share your view.

I resent when people say it's all just for attention---I wanted to end my pain enough to bleed. I only "failed" because Hubby came home unexpectedly. That was it. Another half-hour and no more me. That was sheer luck.

And I've known some who attempted and failed not b/c itw as for attention but b/c they didn't know how to effectively kill themselves, or like me were found, or a freak of chance meant XYZ didn't work....

It's about *pain*. Not life, not death. Pain. To me, anyway. Whether it's the pain of emotion, body, soul---from Alzheimer's, cancer, abuse---to me it's about pain and trying to finally get pain relief.

So there's my two cents.

I was taught God is all-compassionate and all-forigving, so even tho' my Catholic upbringing classed it a sin against Hope? I don't think it's unforgiveable.

So that's me.

I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all for this one. I like your chaplain approach of not arguing whatever conclusion the tormented soul has drawn, nor letting it be the end of the conversation. What I think isn't important unless I am the one caught in the dilemma. The two times I was caught in the dilemma are:

1) I celebrated what should have been my HS graduation with a nearly successful suicide attempt. Instead of wearing a cap and gown, I was wearing a street hooker costume. My vehicle of suicide was the "speed" I was addicted to. I solidly believe the attempt (not my first) was both sinful and cowardly. I look back on the decades since then and think, "Suicide is, indeed, a permanent solution to temporary problems." I am grateful beyond words for the intervention which prevented the suicide and got me into my first therapy session.

2) My brother's suicide. I have never known another soul who tried so hard to be kind and gentle, yet failed so miserably. He had been sexually molested and abused by our father since infancy and his rage issues were fearsome to watch from a safe distance. Being in the path of his rage was beyond terrifying. He was a BIG man. I never doubted he would kill someone some day. At the age of 32 he concluded he could not stop himself from continuing the family legacy. He was molesting his step-daughters and daughter. His wife was terrified of him. Finally, he did kill someone. Peacefully, as he laid down beneath the tailpipe of a running car. Sin? Cowardice? Courage? Compassion? I do not want judgement rights... I still pray for his healing...

Big subject, muji, but you knew that...

I hate people who say that people who commit suicides are cowards and that it is a sin. People don't understand what other's have to go through. They are extremely judgmental and need to be put in their place.

And, if there is a God, according to those people God has everything planned out already. So therefore, God planned for them to commit suicide.

I've thought a lot about this issue as I do suicide counselling and have lost someone dear to me because of suicide.

I think the person who dies in this fashion has no hope for the future and just wants their pain to end. In my situation, I think my ex thought he was doing everyone a favour because he could not stop using drugs and had resorted to stealing off and letting down people he cared deeply about. He was a smart (academically), thoughtful and gorgeous man, but over time he developed a self hatred and could not keep living the way he was, so he ended his life. I think he hated who he had become and he wasn't living according to his values. According to me, he definitely didn't take the cowards way out, he was just desperate to end everyone's pain and saw no other way out (several failed rehab attempts).

That's my take on it anyway.

I'll add that my dad always called suicide "selfish"---till he was dx'd with terminal cancer.

Being catholic and Native in beliefs...well it's split. Catholic preaches it but other than the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill" as applied to ones self, there is not a lot of support.
My native side says there is acceptance of the thought. When pain or age make you incapable of a full life...well you have the choice. Much of what Mojo says still goes on today...but in this age many just refuse to eat or drink, knowing the outcome.
I also believe the creator will understand, since he knows that the free will of others shape our life and self worth.

Due to my nature I have been visited by a few that chose that path. They are not always in a bad place afterwards, some are just released from mental and physical pain of this life. They seem content with their decision. I am also visited by those that didn't, left this world damaged...they are still that way.

When I'm in a lot of interior pain it starts to seem like a good idea.
When my meds work? It does not seem so.
Depression is evil.

At the end of life it would seem rather merciful to die painlessly and with my faculties intact, so if I become terminally ill I think I'd rather go in a planned fashion. But that's different. If one's actively dying and in pain,it makes more sense.

I thank everyone for your feedback on this tough subject. It's a very personal topic, not only touching on our own lives but on those of our loved ones. We have variety here among us with consistent compassion. It helps me picture where my students may be with the topic when it comes up in class, so I can respect where they're coming from. I appreciate this very, very much.

On the Dr. Phil show today, he said that the #1 reason for suicide is that they are tired of being a burden to others.

I think organized religion often effects people's way of thinking on this vs the Bible or books that people use to worship...

I'm a Christian and from what I have seen of Jesus in the Bible is that Ihe was always understanding and loving in his approach to people not judgemental in any way so in that respect I do think there were be understanding.. Organized religion not always so much...
I do agree that there is a selfish element to this as the people left behind are left with a lifetime of self recriminations and I don't think a lot of people would commit suicide if they understood the pain and suffering that they leave behind that is ongoing...It's one of the devastating deaths to accept for loved ones

One of the most common reasons people do commit suicide is "I'll show you"... It can be as much about anger as anything else

I do believe God is merciful.... I don't pretend to know how he thinks about certain situations however many people who do commit suicide are in a very dark psychological place and for me if we are one with God then he 'gets it'

I have been thinking about this since you posted it.

I am not Christian. My hubby is, but I am a Scientologist. We just agree to disagree.

My thoughts on suicide.... I am not always a warm and fuzzy person, deep down there is a nasty darkness that I try to forget. As I am not Christian, I don't see it as a sin.

There are many ways to commit suicide. Some of them are fast, some slow. People can eat themselves to death. My hubby tried this - he doubled his weight in three years. Yes he is 6 1/2 feet tall, but even his frame can't take 500lbs for too long... currently he WANTS to live, but is now having to fight for it through stage II hypertension, sleep apnea, and a chronic infection. Other people drink themselves to death - I have had two relatives do this. It takes years, but it works. Recreational drugs can also fall into this category.

I used to not care if I lived or not and became an adrenaline junkie... high risk physical activities; extreme trail riding, breaking horses to saddle, mountain climbing, distance biking. By the time I was in my mid-teens I had already broken almost every bone in my body at least once - had fractured my skull four times.

Most people don't look at these actions as a want to die... but I don't see them as anything but a lack of respect for tying to live.

There are also quick ways to die, the usual definition of suicide. These ways have more shock value.

Either way, if no one is going to know you are gone, I don't think it makes a difference. If there is ANY family or ANY friends, you permanently scar them. That I can look back at and say it is not acceptable.

I have driven into my daughter's head that under no circumstances does a person have the right to hurt or risk someone else's life by your actions/inactions. It has become something that I live by with all my being.

If there is a point where my no longer being alive will not cause anyone pain, then I won't be here any longer. But as long as it would cause pain to my hubby, daughter, my few friends, it is not a possibility. My life may not be something I want to live, but I won't cause pain to others. That is selfish.

just my perspective, I have not been up to reading other people comments. If you want to use this in your class, you have my permission - but don't know if you would want to.

yadlim