Ya' know ....

There's this thing, called the "Just World Hypothesis:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Also, the notion of "victim blaming:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming

I just finished up with a court-ordered psychologist. We had two, two-hour sessions.

In the first, he heard my whole story. He was ... well ... pretty much in disbelief that what I said happened ... happened.

Between sessions, he met with my attorney.

When we met again, yesterday, he had learned that every single thing I SAID happened, happened exactly as I said it did.

I explained to him that ... I didn't do anything wrong, did everything right, never hurt anybody, and yet ... what happened to me, happened to me, exactly as I said.

And I explained my "loss of a just world" feelings.

Maybe your sister is trying to reaffirm HER feelings about a "just world --" that, if you just get right with God, bad things simply won't happen to you (something my sister-and-law used to try to get me to believe).

But they do happen. Bad things happen to good people -- people of faith, and people of no particular faith.

Just read these threads.

Bad stuff happened to you, Kat. It doesn't mean you're not right with your God, that your faith faltered, or that you're not a good and worthwhile human being.

Most of us ... simply got hit by some sort of tractor-trailer or another.

I've got a name and number for an MD. I asked this psychologist for a referral, to get some help with sleeping.

Ya' gotta' sleep. Everything is worse, and nothing GETS better, when we don't get good sleep.

What do you think YOU can do to re-gain good sleep ?

What have you tried ? What haven't you tried.

I'm sorry for, and share your pain. There's only so much we can do to control our pain. We have a better shot of changing our response TO the pain.

That's what I work on ...ever day.

I wish you peace, health, strength, and slumber :-)

Seems like I've heard it all...nobody's THAT unlucky...you brought this on yourself somehow....you draw bad things to yourself with your thoughts...things aren't as bad as you make them out to be...try seeing the positive things in all this.

Finally, after many years of this, I got it. All this stuff is garbage. Bad things happen to people, but no one wants to acknowledge that it does...because doing so makes them vulnerable. The bad things could happen to them.

So it must be my fault somehow...it wouldn't happen to them, they go to church for heaven's sake.

We all walk a tightrope through life...and lots of people fall off. It just happens. It's true, life is not fair at all.

It is not an academic test with right and wrong answers, Kat. Ya feel what you feel and ya believe what you believe. Both feelings and faith are fluid phenomenon that change at the speed of life.

Go easy on yourself. Give it time to sort itself out.

For now, I might suggest you go find a channel for that anger. It is a valid emotion but carries tremendous toxins that need venting. When I am in a place like this, sometimes I name some object, "God" then beat the bloody hell out of it.

She can take it...

My T told me a long time ago that some folks who have been badly abused join fundamentalist religions as they are very black and white. My brother did this and I guess b/c the beliefs are so structured, it works for him. Perhaps your sister's beliefs are her way of trying to deal with her abuse and so she thinks it would help you as well. Perhaps also, what she is saying to you is stuff she is trying to convince herself of too. I see absolutely nothing wrong with saying to her that you would prefer God not be one of the topics you two talk about and that if you want to do so you will be the one to bring it up.

I have learned over a long long time of counseling and then doing EMDR that there was nothing I could have done to stop the abuse and torture I experienced. I was way to young when the abuse started and helpless and I became so conditioned to helplessness as I grew up that I didn't fight what happened to me. It had been ingrained in me by then that to resist was worse than allowing whatever to happen. So, even when I was old enough to resist, I didn't b/c I had learned not to. Since I have remembered what happened to me, I feel a huge amount less guilt than I used to. I understand now that how I am now is b/c of stuff that happened to me that I couldn't control and so I don't have to blame myself anymore for not being able to stop being depressed and wasting my life etc. I can't say if all the guilt is gone, but I think if you think about who is really to blame for your PTSD, then you can be more assertive in not being judged. Just an idea.

U guys went straight to the point...

David: i think that the beliefs of the world have a way of affecting their point of view on things, esp. religion. Guilt and shame make me feel embarrassed for having to live through such experiences, that I don't know how to be without it. How do i put this? Because of the transpired events in my life, it created in me a strong need to feel revenge and helplessness that I thought would never happen to me.

You have point. My faith/belief in God has a huge effect on my outlook. I have a difficulty believing that what happens and has happened is something that nobody, including myself, should never happen to anybody. I can't accept what happened to me, at least for now. I have accepted insomnia as a nightmare for me...

Maybe her beliefs are stronger than mine and may use it as a way to reaffirm her feelings of a just world.

Richie: you came out strong that it seems as offensive for anyone to take in. I am sorry if my insomnia and depression has kicked in and turned its ugly head, but maybe I haven't reached to the viewpoint that you have been able to achieve. I don't believe I need to go explain and defend myself. Ur right, thoughts do have an effect. But you are not going to tell me, i brought my own pain upon myself: how in the world am I suppose to take what I have lived, when nobody in my home believes that I am right for following my gut instincts? U may or may not have point, but take this into consideration: you may believe that all of this is garbage, but don't confuse mine with yours. Nobody becomes an expert and believes all that has happened just does. At least I haven't. So don't rub things into my face...


Arfie: You know how to calm the storms here. Sigh, you are right. Like I mentioned before in a previous post, going easy on myself has never been part of who I am or what I have been taught. Faith and feelings are intangible things. I view them as being real. Thank you for being you...

Stella:,You have come a long way from where you are. You are the veteran of the group, as so I see it.

My sister and I have always been different once it comes to views of religion and faith. I think she uses her beliefs and faith as a way for her to be comforted. I use it as a way to question my world of beliefs and find true meaning as to what is supposed to be for me. it might be her way of coping with her abuse. i don't believe religion to be real and substantial for a lot of ppl and it's controversial. I find it healthy to talk about it here, without judging them for having such views. PTSD goes a long way here. It's amazing how deep it affects our faith or beliefs....

Vulnerability is hard to accept, but when you have been conditioned to think and act a certain way, it becomes a whole different ballgame. I have not accepted my abuse and hurt as conditioned living. Its the part of not being able to control the situations that has been difficult for me. I blame my brother for a lot of the pain and anguish that my family and I endured. Its his irresponsibility that bothers me, along with his actions.

I can't say for sure, but I thought Richie was talking about his own experience being told things were his fault etc.

Something doesn't quite ring true to me when you talk about not accepting what happened to you. To me what it sounds like you are saying is that it is not okay with you what happened to you. If that is what you are saying then you're absolutely correct. It was wrong and will always be wrong and the abusers should be drawn and quartered. if what you mean by accept is that acceptance means it doesn't matter any more what happened, then I don't think that's something you ever want to determine. i don't know if I am making any sense here.

I've had trouble myself with this acceptance thing. To me, saying I accept what happened to me means it doesn't matter any more and that is not true. My T and I have talked about this at length and I am still trying to figure it out. I know what happened to me and maybe somehow I have to come to terms with the fact that it happened and is part of me now and gradually work to heal and put it behind me to whatever extent I can. I'm never going to forget what happened and I'm never going to say it's no big deal. it's over and done and leave it alone now and move on. I think more it will be kind of like doing the emdr. Initially the memories are horrid and and unexpressable and devestating and so awful etc. But then as I moved on to more memories, the ones that came up first were less intense as the new memories were even more intense. I guess over time, the earlier stuff took on less intensity and got sort of incorporated into my body and mind and soul. it didn't go away and it still affects me, but not with the initial intensity I am hoping that is what happens with all this abuse and torture stuff. That I get to where the thoughts and memories and soul wrenching hurt, anger, whatever is not the first thing on my mind when I get up and the only thing I can focus on. That I'll have dealt with it enough that it can fade into the background more and other stuff become more prominent. I'm probably getting you all mixed up with my mixed up rambling here. I guess I just don't get that word acceptance and what it means to me. I think maybe that is something we all have to define to ourselves. We're not saying it's okay that the abuse happened or that it doesn't matter, more that we are coming to terms with the idea that it all happened and accept that we need to deal with it.

I dont think any two peoples relationship with God (or the idea of God) are ever the same.

I also know that its a common problem among truama survivors to have a problem with this.

I used to be so sure of God that I thought nothing would lessen how I felt, but theres been a couple years of disconnect that I dont have an answer for. Im starting to slowly reconnect in my own way, but it will take a while. (also Im not any mainstream religion so that also makes it dicey)

I dont think there is anything wrong with that though. Its such a personal thing, and I dont think that its any fault of my own.

From my experience, and from my experience talking to agnostic people and athiests and hearing theyre stories, I dont think that anyone ever doesnt want there to be a god in the beginning. It is just their experience that has failed to show them. I think if they were to have a different life experience their views might change.

It sounds like your sister giving you this attitude is only serving her. She doesnt understand and this is her way of making sense of the world. Maybe theres a lot of denial there, or naivety. Whichever, it doesnt say anything about you and says everything about her.

There are too many people shoving their religion down other peoples throats

David wrote so well when he said:
"Bad things happen to good people -- people of faith, and people of no particular faith.
Just read these threads.
Bad stuff happened to you, Kat. It doesn't mean you're not right with your God, that your faith faltered, or that you're not a good and worthwhile human being.
Most of us ... simply got hit by some sort of tractor-trailer or another.
Ya' gotta' sleep. Everything is worse, and nothing GETS better, when we don't get good sleep."

I'm not Jewish, but Rabbi Kushner's book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" made me understand the Book of Job and my own life and lives of my contemporaries here. And then looking at the real stories of good people in the world's religions--mostly they suffered unfairly, too. That's the story of Jesus of Nazareth, I found. The nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, and he got betrayed, abandoned, and literally nailed.

Nothing is wrong with us. Bad things happened to us. There is a difference that matters there. You are absolved and can rest assured in that much. And there David is right again: we need rest from our torment. Sleep. I know from my own life this week how much we need it, how much I need it, just to cope. I hope you can get some rest, even just a little. It makes things that much better, bit by bit. You're not alone in this. We know.

I've always struggled with the whole God thing. I just didn't know until PTSD why. My therapists says that faith is often the first thing to go with trauma and the last to come back. Since I was raised with a punitive and angry version of God, I was sure that my trauma was because I had done something wrong. I was a very good little girl so it was very confusing. I've been working on trying to reshape God into an entity that is loving but it's hard when I'm still so angry that he didn't protect me. This will take a long time.

It really isn't important to understand your sister. Just accept her as she is. What is important is to learn from how you respond to her on this subject and find the spiritual relationship that is good for you.

I too am struggling with my concept of God. I've been going to see the Rabbi at my synagogue and talking to her about my concept of God which is omnipotent, all powerful, and judgmental and since he is all powerful, he should have never have let me go through the trauma I experienced. My Rabbi has a different vantage point and it helps to talk to her in order to try to move to a loving God that is not how I think of him, or at least not the other way which applies to the God of the ancient Jews more. I'm nowhere near there now, but it helps to talk about it. My Rabbi says that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being angry at God, yelling at God, cursing at him, etc. Essentially you can feel any way you want to in your communication with God.

My current belief is that God performed miracles in ancient history and was omniscient and all powerful. However, I think that he is not going to destroy the world anymore after the Noah's ark thing, and that he gave us free will. So, people have the free will to be evil or nice or whatever. I read something recently that said that people's problems are created by people and it is up to people to solve them. So, God doesn't step in to fix things anymore, it is all up to us. I don't particularly like that idea, as it seems more hopeless in many ways, but I do understand it. Perhaps the way we fix the fact that our parents, rapists, whoever, traumatized us, is that we work on ourselves to heal and do not pass it on to our children or other people's children. I'm just tossing that out as a thought.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to talk to some sort of religious leader and not just once, as you try to form a concept of God that you can relate to. I have been reading books about how others found their way back to God or even found God in the first place. It's helping me to see what others believe and if any of it fits me.

I'm glad Stella brought up the fact that she had talked to a Rabbi about struggling with the concept of God. I am a Christian, but I owe what faith I have to the little I've learned about the rabbinic tradition. In the Hebrew scriptures, the great role models tend to struggle with God. The great Jacob even wrestled with an angel. His name was changed to Israel for that--one who wrestles with God. It became the name of a people.

This doesn't mean I struggle any less. It just means that (a) I know it's not a sin, and (b) I know it's not for nothing. It's in the nature of making meaning for meaning to be hard to make. Blessings, everybody, and thanks to every one of you who has helped me in my struggles. Peace.

I have really enjoyed the comments here. They seem so real and from the heart. I too have struggled with religion these past few years. I would never have believed I would ever have done this. I tried for years to be the perfect christian. It was part of my "having to be good" but I did not realize it. I am seeing God in a whole new light, leaving behind the things I have been taught and finding him for who he really is. I felt a tremendous amount of guilt for awhile, being taught "you don't question God". God was the only part of my life that made any sense to me, so it has been really hard for me to seperate God and religious teachings. Someone here wisely stated that what your sister is doing says more about her than it does about you. I have found this to be a very important part of my healing, to realize that what people say is really about them. Too much of my life, I have taken everyones thoughts, opinions, anger, etc, and took them personally and let them define who i am.
Even when someone is "good", I realize now it could just be a good defense mechanism to survive. I was "good" and extremely sick (although I didn't appear to be).

I do believe in God, but i also think that you can heal and not believe in God too. God is a private and personal thing and YOU get to decide what works for you-no one else. For me, God is the good in the world. God doesn't have anything to do with bad things, but God gives us the courage and strength to get through them. Also, I think it is OK to get angry with God.

Hbe123, you raise really good points here. I find it difficult for me to separate God and healing. I have believed that with God and only God can true healing come from. Now, it's not a questionable reasoning but a challenging one. A lot of people here have done things, with or without God and have achieved things. Personal belief makes the root of all things why and what we do what we do. I've always learned that to be angry at God is wrong, but now, its a whole different ballgame.

Jay,I believe we come from a background where if we sin or if something bad happens, it must be because of sin. I believe in action and reactions;sin has its consequences too. Religion has taught me to be the best Christian I can be. Truthfully, it didn't and hasn't worked for me. I think the same way as you. Years of learning Christian beliefs, principles, and rituals, become part of you and if you question God for what He does, it seems like you are in disbelief or doubt.

I thank you for knowing and understanding my point of view. Still have a lot to say...