Totally.

Include all the things you listed here as part of Ilene's index card exercise.

Next time the nice act starts, take those cards out and read them over and over again.

This will remind you of who he really is, and help you strengthen your resolve to make healthy changes in your life.

that sounds like a rough night...I've had many of those...

I second calmzone..are you doing the index card exercise?

even though I'm dead certain that I must get out, that mine is abusive, I sometimes still find myself doubting it, starting to think I'm crazy-some kind of scab picker, looking for something to complain about...

they do that to you.

Your H sounds a lot like mine. He will sit there and accuse me of not listening to him, even after I've heard the darn lecture so many times I have it memorized, and I've been sitting there quietly listening to it for an hour.

Then--when he would start verbally abusing me and I would tell him to stop, he would accuse me of "not being a good listener" and "making everything about myself--instead of just listening to his 'feelings'." Just because I took offense to his heinous verbal abuse. Then of course, he will use my "poor listening skills" as an excuse to launch into every other thing wrong with me.

It is so crazy when they latch on to "healthy relationship rules" and use them to be abusive. It's total crazy making.

This morning, I told my H I was going on a walk after I made eggs for him.

Then he suggested we both go on a walk...I held my ground and politely said no, "because the last time we went on a walk you left me behind." In fact, the last two times we went on a walk together, he left me behind--not to mention all the other times that I collapsed in the woods crying, or was left behind on a back country hike--too many to remember.

Usually I wouldn't say this, and I would just go with him and be afraid--because it is taboo to talk about the things he did in our relationship.

So he said, "What? Fine! I'll never ask you to do anything again!"

So I said, "Okay."

Then he said, "Everybody has problems in their relationship--they just don't give up. They keep trying."

I've heard this crazy making before. The thing he is really saying is "why don't you just go along with me? You know, you're the only one who should be 'trying.' And that means 'trying' to follow me. And trying to pretend that I never abused you--and trying to never talk about it or be afraid that it will happen again, like you know it will."

Then I said, "People who care about their relationship look at the things they do that are harming it, and then they choose to stop being harmful to it."

So he said, of course, "Well, you never do that!"--again, this comes back to old arguments where he tells me that I never apologize, (for the times when he is abusive)--though he "believes in apologizing, even if you don't know what it's for--because you care about the relationship." So, he will end up apologizing like this, "I don't know what I did wrong, but sorry." And expect me to accept it and move on to being all happy and loving because --joy,joy--he chose to start talking to me again.

So I said, "well, I believe that is not true." And left.

I think that this kind of psychological twisting is really freaky. Your H sounds like he is exploiting your desire to work on the relationship, and have a healthier one--and he is using that good desire of yours to be abusive to you. This is one of the reasons, I think, why couples counseling doesn't work for abusive relationships. Your H sounds like a real psychological twister--someone who is very manipulative and gas lighting.

In order for a relationship to be healthy--for there to be healthy communication--both partners need to be given equal power in the relationship. They need to both be treated with respect and consideration--and this is never so in an abusive relationship, which is practically defined by power imbalance.

Do you care about getting along? Do you want to make him happy? Do you care about your relationship--even enough to make sacrifices and compromises--if so, then he is definitely manipulating these altruistic aspects of you. That is really sad and wrong.

The only way that I have found, to get away from these kinds of circular arguments--is to not talk to him (or listen). HA HA HA--or go on walks with him where I know he will expect to talk to me (even though that is soooo mean of me)!

lol--I just thought of something. Maybe your H and mine are on the same schedule, because mine just returned to Mr. Hyde a couple of days ago. I agree with the index exercise--your husband's words and actions are so sneakily mismatched, that it must be hard keeping what he is doing straight.

Littlekatya, your situation sounds freakishly similar. My H always tells me that I don't listen ( after listening to him rave for hours) When I finally crack it after hearing again how awful it is to live with me and tell him not to put me down he gets angry because I am 'taking offense' or 'taking it personally'. Last nite he told me I was 'like a religious freak' then walked out when I got upset about it. Somehow this is not personal and I shouldn't take offense. He recently told our 10 year old son that he is 'selfish' because he runs out of the room when his dad is telling him off instead of staying and talking it thru. When I confronted him on this, my H said it was 'tough love' and
someone had to tell him. My son has low self esteem and being labelled as selfish by his dad has cut him up terribly. He tells me that he leaves the room cos he can't stand being yelled at, it is the only way he can deal with it, by getting away. Somehow this is my sons problem because he 'takes offense'. Last nite my H tells me I have the same problem as our son. Strange how his own family feels intimidated by him yet somehow it is we who have the problem.

Yesterday when I pointed out that he always picks on me and only ever sees what i am NOT doing, he admitted that he doesn't treat his friends or workmates like this but I cop it because of everything I have done to him. Somehow his bad behaviour is my fault.

My mind is so screwed up and confused, I fall onto blaming myself so easily. It feels like I am wrong when I stand up for myself especially when he gets angry when I do. Feeling very much like leaving at the moment .

I know that switch between Mr nice guy and Mr horrible can be hard to deal with. It can throw me quite a bit - all part of the abusive nature I guess. It's good that you can see how unfair he is being. Everything is twisted around so he can blame his stuff on you. Anyhow keep believing in yourself and keep healing and going forward with your life. Know you don't deserve this..

Know and stick to your truth. Listen to your gut. You KNOW what he's doing.

I had that one too - the "don't take it personally". Um, you just told me I'm boring and have no sense of humour, and I'm not supposed to take that "personally"? Well how the f*ck AM I supposed to take it then? "Gee thanks honey, now what would you like for dinner"?

You say you feel like leaving - hang on to that thought. Nurture that thought. Feed and water that thought. Let it grow! And then leave, for your sake and for the sake of your son, so that you both have a chance to rebuild your self-esteem and so that he has a chance to grow up to be a happy and functional partner in whatever future relationships he may have, rather than repeating the cycle of abuse which is the relationship that is being modeled to him.

Yeah--I have to say that IMO, the kind of twisting around, gas-lighting abuse, has been the most devastating abuse that he has dished out to me.
It keeps you stuck, and makes you feel like it is your fault. PLUS, it gives you false reason to think that talking to him will resolve things--when it only makes them worse.
That is horrible what he did to your son--that kind of emotional manipulation is nearly impossible for a child to sort through, or understand. And it contributes to feelings of self-loathing, something that can be devastating to a child's life.

In essence, he is telling your child that he is "bad" by dishing out the emotional abuse on him--but in addition, he is telling him that he is "bad" for trying to avoid the abuse as well. This is such a toxic lesson to teach a child.

I do not envy your position at all! Refusing to talk with my H anymore about most things has got me labeled as passive aggressive by him, but it is one of the best things I have done for myself psychologically.

Now, when he starts again, I can see it's almost like a tape recording--and I know his angles. This is because I don't give him new info by confiding in him--so he resorts to he same old stuff--I also practice "poker face", so he can't use my reactions to guide his manipulative attack.

I know now that ANY conversation I have with him about our relationship will be full of BS, and that he will try to use it to shift all the blame on me and as an excuse to begin eroding my self esteem. I know this because I have sat through so many conversations with him--but enough is enough!

I am so sorry that he is doing this to your reality--and your son's. Maybe your son could see a counselor? That might help him sort through the toxic messages that his father is feeding him.

My ex was really good at this stuff when he was drunk. God, the hours and hours of lecture I would get. And the I was an awful person when I didn't want to listen to him. I didn't care about him or our life together. Blah blah blah blah blah. On and on it would go. It got to where I couldn't sit and listen to him even when he wasn't drunk.

And of course, I blame myself for it. If only I could have been a better wife he wouldn't have left me.

*Sigh* I really hope that goes away someday.

Thanks for sharing that Strength...the caring about their feelings and OUR behaviors.
You are doing a great thing for your kids.....
possum....so sorry Mr Hyde had returned. We all can relate....