I don't believe they do believe it because they can change at will. Don't forget their past behaviours. They are all the same. They can and will do anything to hook a victim back (this is just an example I'm giving) so if you take that example, look at what yellows husband has done (he's a great example of this) look how different he was when she was with him to what he was like when she left.

I think they have to know to be able to be successful enough in their convictions. This isn't just random crap, this is a plan, why do they even bother, well it's about having the power to control the conversation, rewrite history, the difference is we have no value in doing that, they value doing it greatly.

My advice, let him think what he wants, I wouldn't agree or disagree, I'd simply say, you can tell yourself what ever u like, I know the truth and I'm very much ok with that now. If he asks you "well what's the truth then?" (Just to get you to engaged in conversation, I'd say, "I guess that's something for u to figure out, I owe u nothing so your on your own on that one, and I'm done talking about this and I'm done talking to you altogether, don't contact me again, if u do I won't be responding again!"

Ha, wow...talk about projection. I wish I knew what went on in their heads, but he's definitely projecting his stuff on you, trying to play the victim, as abusers are so infamously known for. Sometimes I think part of it is an effort to self-justify their poor behavior towards another person, too...Mine constantly does that.. "Oh you hurt me so I get to hurt you back" kind of thing.

Mine also hasn't rewritten history too much...just denying things he's said a little bit, but I don't know if they really magically forget or...they tell it to themselves with so much conviction they start to believe it because they HAVE to be right or they HAVE to be in control.

Hi freedom. It is my experience that narcissists like him cannot accept that they did anything that could be considered wrong. So they use the incredibly immature, "No, I'm not the cheater, YOU are!!" to project their own bad behaviour onto you.

Yes, it's illogical, but I think they simply cannot mentally process the idea that they could be wrong. So automatically blame gets shifted to the nearest person.

My husband did this all the time. He would do it over ridiculous little things, like who didn't pull the computer plug out before bed. That is how insistent he was that he was always right. If you challenged him, he would either completely ignore the fact that you had even spoken, or raise his voice and accuse you of accusing HIM, so loudly that it would scare you into backing down, even though you were right.

Their brains are broken, and yes, I really believe that THEY believe their own versions of events due to such profound mental damage. If they want to believe that black is white, there is nothing you can do to convince them.

They simply don't have the normal behavioural regulators that the rest of us do. That is why he had no problem still asking you to have sex with him! To us that would trigger a reaction like, "What the hell, don't you have any shame??" But they don't see why it is so terrible, because it's what they want and they don't care.

Hope this helps! xxx

I think abusers typically distort facts to make things not their fault, or their actions justified. I think in some cases, they distortion they weave is what they actually believe happened. Other times, they know they are making stuff up because they want to deliberately hurt you.

People that are damaged emotionally may have very low self esteem and sense of identity, and the thought of them being a bad person is something they can't handle, so somewhere in childhood they developed a coping mechanism that distorts reality so that they never see themselves at fault. And I think they truly believe the world as they have distorted it. I see my girlfriend do this all the time - she will mention something that happened, and 99.99% of the population would see it one way, but she sees it another. And if ANYONE ever tells her something that disagrees with her realty, she immediately finds a reason to hate that person.

My guess is that your ex probably believes things happened the way he describes, as insane as that sounds. It's the universe his brain concocted in order to protect himself from his own self-loathing. And anything that disagrees with his universe must therefore be a lie, and it is impossible to convince him otherwise.

Ooh, that's a scary thought, kevin. I hope nothing like that is true about me.

"...he had the nerve after all of this to ask if I was still willing to have sex with him! "

Somehow this kind of puts everything into perspective to me. XD

One of the most basic elements of abuse is, everything's all about THEM.

I can give you advice straight from counseling: you don't need to know why he thinks what he does to know that it's messed up. I run into situations constantly that are more subtle but I know that something isn't right. If I can tell why, that really helps me feel better, but knowing why isn't required to know that it isn't right- that's just intuition. My counselor calls it "the face" and if you're making the face, you know to ignore and get away.

A very hurtful person!!! I'm glad he's your EX!!!

Bax - I don't know you personally, but I'm certain that's not true about you - simply because you are capable of coming here and opening yourself up to possibilities. The abuser would never open up to the idea that they could be wrong because they are incapable.

Keep in mind a second part to this - that the abusers also want others to validate their distorted universe, so they put on a different face for family and friends. And many of them are VERY convincing and build allies easily. And I think that is what your wife is doing - finding allies to support her because she does not want to examine herself.

A recent example - my girlfriend will sometimes say when she is mad at me that "everyone (she) know(s) agrees with her" that I am being abusive towards her. I'm not sure who "everyone" is, or that she really talked to anyone except a few friends. And if she did talk to people, did she tell them she screamed at me, called me names, or hit me? I can't imagine "everyone" would agree that is appropriate behavior.

And she was mentioning the other night about something that happened in the past regarding something she wanted to do, and how everyone tried to tell her it was a bad idea except her best friend. And it WAS a bad idea. A horrible selfish potentially hurtful unethical idea that in hindsight would have been a DISASTER. Yet, she can't look back and accept that it was a bad idea, instead she is still upset at those who did not support her. Her best friend is her best friend because this friend validates that it is okay to sometimes to hurtful things.

So be careful. Just because your wife can convince people to her side does not mean that her view is correct.

There are so many good insights here... and really the truth is that it doesn't matter. If there is a rabid dog that lives on your street, even if he is chained up, you cross over to the other side of the street... You don't try to pet it!

Still the psychological aspect of it all still fascinates me... I have read literature that talks about how the narcissist cannot have a relationship without engulfment... They view other people as literally an extension of themselves. When we act in ways that displease them, it causes them major internal dismay... Because how dare we mess with THEIR version of the universe. In order to resolve the cognitive dissonance that reveals all is not right in their world, we are re-written into the villains they must destroy... Anything to stop them from looking into the mirror and seeing themselves.

Rockin' your example gives me such a great reminder about how far they will go to be right!! Like the computer plug... Really? Good god, it must me nice to live in a world where the thing that irritates you most is whether or not you unplugged the computer!! He must have been really hard to live with, when the good times faded into the past.... Ugh!!! Do they even know how lucky they are to have us?!!



Honestly, even with all of the psychological insight--- It comes down to what OOOOO said... Trust your gut!!! Even if you don't know why something is off... Something IS OFF, even if we can't put our finger on it!!!


During this exchange minus the absolute craziness... I had the distinct impression something WAS off, way deeper than the simple re-writing of history. He isn't telling the truth about something. Something major. Luckily, I don't care what it is because he is no longer a part of my universe anymore.

I slipped up and let him through a crack... Never again. I am too precious for that. As are all of us!!!

The Lundy Bancroft book is still pretty fresh in my mind, having read it recently. And IIRC, in situations like this, it's his belief that abusers know very well that what they're saying is false. I believe he gave a few examples of abusers saying nasty accusations to their wives -- but admitting to him privately that they knew the accusations weren't true.

I think in the abuser's eternal quest for power and control, the truth becomes just another casualty.

I am still baffled at why abuser's project so much and so often. Even the experts can't agree on why they do this. There's a quote I read recently that seems to fit:

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are -- or, as we are conditioned to see it. When we open our mouths to describe what we see, we in effect describe ourselves, our perceptions, our paradigms.

-- Stephen R. Covey

Could it be that simple?

Free, you are handling this recent exchange so amazingly well and I am happy for you!

The last line about having sex....WTF?? Simply pure delusion don't you think?

And I think you are probably right about your "hunch" something is up. But, as you duly noted, not your concern.

You rock!!

I think they do it just to cause chaos. To get you angry, to get you defensive, to have the upper hand. Crazy making. It's what they do.

I was in a meeting with my ex, with Family Relations, to discuss custody of my then 15 yr old son. When it wasn't going the way he wanted, he became irrational, throwing around accusations. The counselor looked at me, totally confused by him, totally frustrated as she tried to get him to follow a line of thought. I told her, right in front of him, "That's what he does. He creates chaos so nothing will get done."

She said, "ok, that's it for today."

He told me after the divorce, that the post nup he made me sign (and which he went to the Supreme Court to try to get upheld, unsuccessfully) was just his way of trying to keep us together. LOL, I mean, really LOL!!!!!

I told him, "NO, it wasn't. Who do you think you're talking to? It was so that you would get EVERYTHING and leave me with nothing."

He gets shocked these days when I throw his words and actions in his face.

But they say it to piss you off, to create chaos in your head, to keep your head wrapped around them, making you think what did you do to make them think that. Just absurdity. That's why you need NC for a long while, so that they can't do that to you, and you can heal and become strong again.

Well you handled it better than I did ;-)

I came to the conclusion with my ex that the concept of true or false was just not relevant. It wasn't a case of did he believe his absurd lies or not. He simply said whatever he felt he needed to say to achieve the aim he had in mind at the time. So yesterday, his absurd accusations against me were just what he thought would get me engaged in the conversation, defending myself and spinning around. But if it suited him, he could also say that I'm a wonderful mother and an excellent communicator. In fact, if it had suited him, he would have said those things in the very same conversation as telling me I never could talk properly and I care more about money than about my son's wellbeing. It's totally incomprehensible to me that he can do this, that he can say things without even giving any consideration to whether they are true or false, but I'm pretty certain he does.

That's not the case with all abusers (it wasn't with my mother and isn't with my father). Some will tell what they know to be a lie because it suits them, and others will wrap themselves up so tight in their reality that they are capable of believing even the absurd things they say. Hard to tell with yours which it is. But whichever one, the point was to get you so busy defending yourself and trying to prove him wrong (yet again) that you had no room left to focus on HIS misbehaviour. A smokescreen to make him feel better about his own cheating and to make you feel guilty and defensive.

Was talking with a girl the other day, and she kept handing me the 'don't just be a victim - what you're saying doesn't make sense. There's still a piece missing.' I eventually told her 'Look. I've told you my side. I've told you the truth. It's not my responsibility to make my story match what you've already been told. If there's more out there, it might not be loose from my end. I am a victim of remarkably foolish and cruel and self-centered people. I'm rectifying the situation. And that's my experience. I've shared it honestly with you, and you really don't need to hit me with the 'there's something you're not telling me - have you searched your soul, to have gotten to the bottom of EVERYTHING?' Yes. I have. And I shared it with you.'

I know what the truth is. I can fight to keep it from impacting my life too harshly, they can act on their own experience. They can be as crazy as a fix in heat if they want. It doesn't change the truth. My experience is mine, and no one gets to redefine that but me.

Thank you everybody. I thought two months would be long enough, but I guess not. The truth is that he is a very sick and damaged individual. He is not right in the head, has chosen to never be right in the head and will never be right in the head.

I almost feel like his insanity is contagious... I find myself doing and saying things I would never do otherwise. All in a reaction to the abuse. I have given up trying to defend myself, but internally, I feel like I am being dropped on my head. Okay one minute, and crying the next! No wonder I felt crazy!!!

I agree with the different points everyone is making. I think my ex uses words and accusations to achieve a certain goal. In this case, it is to get me all riled up and defensive so that there is drama... He loooves drama, feeds off of it.

I think I must be a good fix, or at least used to be. Something tells meI am not so much fun anymore for him. I don't react as much as I used to, I ignore him and even when he does suck me, I don't give the same kind of responses that I used too.

I am a bad ex-gf. Oh btw, he has resorted to calling me his 'friend'... Even though he wanted to marry me just a couple months ago. I hate being downgraded in importance. He is an evil, twisted sob. Excuse my language, I got riled up just thinking about it.