Hey flyingangel ..... I don't want your discussion thread to get derailed by this stuff. We do ALL have strong opinions about what is healthy, unhealthy, right, wrong.

"""""I am asking for help in situations where the partners want to stay together and heal."""""""

From reading your post, it really seems like you are doing a lot of great work. I hope you are BOTH working on your marriage, because that's definitely one of the key ingredients for success.

There was a period of time when my ex and I did manage to repair a lot of the damage his abuse had done to our marriage, and it was when he really paid attention to his temper and learned how to read his own body better so he could identify ahead of time situations that might usually cause him to go into a rage, and he could manage his anger or stress better and not hurt himself or me. At the same time, I worked on not being afraid of any and every raised voice and on erecting some boundaries so I could let some of his insults and verbal abuse slide off me instead of internalizing. "What he's saying right now is about him, not me." That kind of thing.

Those were some of the most successful times in our short (5 year) marriage.

Take good care of yourself!

Thank you Jennifersue! Good post


and to flyaway... You say in your reply # 12... and I'm being specific with your post as you were with mine.

"I don't think this is the place to come and ask others to lie to you and say it's a good idea when 98 percent of us know better."

That is YOUR opinion. How is my opinion condescending and yours isn't??
You're basically telling those of us who want to work through abuse that this isn't the place for us. Telling us we are in denial.
Thanks a lot.

I had to put my 2 cents in,
I was curious when flyinangel posted last in this group as she said she did. If you click on view more posts, you will find this is the first time she has posted here.

Every circumstance and every family situation is different.
My hubby was abusive, not around the kids and I could pretty much control his behavior, but not all of it.
I believe Christysays husband is pretty much the same.

I found this group and had my eyes opened wide when I read how horrible and dangerous emotional abusers can really be. I try and help, but you guys are way out of my league. I must have just read for at least 3 months before typing one word. At first I wanted to tell everyone how I could control my husband as Christysays does, but as I kept reading, I realized you all have been abused far and away worse than I ever was, at least most of you.
The ones that come here for help, come because they can NOT control their husbands violent, crazy behaviors and their children are suffering too.

I do not give any advice based on my abuser as it is the wrong advice for 99% of the people who come to this group asking for help.
The ones who have been here for awhile know exactly the right things to say. They have all lived with really bad abusers and I do mean really bad, and thank goodness most have gotten away.
So Thanks, ladies again for all you do. You are all so wise and I am so sorry you all had to go through your nightmare to get here.
Your advice is priceless.

Thanks for chiming in Gem.

As for controlling my husband.. lol Not a chance. I control no one but myself. He has every right to be angry and bossy and I have every right not to react to it. His moods don't bother me. If he upsets my physical world.. well that would bother me and I will call the police! Anyway....

I don't usually add to any threads dealing with physical violence because I don't know about that. I give advice on the posts that I can personally relate to and when I see what I deem to be extreme advice such as.. It is hopeless... leave leave.. you're in denial! blah blah That is NOT ok.

Further more I don't believe anyone is out of anyone's league here. It's a public internet message board for goodness sake. If you want to be in awe of certain members that is your right, Gem. That's not my style.

We have all had issues and we all have a right to state our opinions. When I see a poster that I relate to and I see her ask for specific advice. I see her state that she wants to work on things and then I read people telling her she is in denial etc.. I'm going to support her.

Have a great night!

I just had to clear up a couple of things Christy, then I'm off to bed.

I controlled hubby's behavior by my behavior and how I reacted to his behavior. I thought that was what you said you did so I thought you would understand that statement.

Emotional abuse is a lot of time, much worse than physical abuse. I was only talking about emotional abuse which I did state.

You are absolutely right. We all have the right to state our opinion.
Your opinion is welcome anytime. We all need different perspectives.

Hello all
I saw the messages today in reply to my post. Thank you all for sharing.
I want to clarify that I did post on this forum before, maybe around 28December last year...
Anyways, I appreciate all the advice and suggestions.
I must say I have mentioned few things here and this particular post has more to do with my husbands behaviours. There is no denial he is abusive and also there may be more I am learning about it.
At the same time, I also know that he is not aware of his patterns until I gain clarity, point it out to him in a no-confrontational way and then things do change. He loves me and wants to accommodate me. Many times we have misundestandings and as our communication has improved, we have been able to understand each other better, out hot buttons, sensitive spots and learn to get along. Infact through all this hard work, the situation has changed a LOT for the better. So I decided to come back to the forum to gain further advice on working on and improving the marriage.
My insecurity ad jealousy have been abusive clearly so. I do have patterns of being abusive , again not intentionally; but my responses and reactions might be hurtful to someone when I am not aware of how they feel. I also have the tendency to push my husband until he blows up. My disconnecting emotionally or being upset over things also hurt him.
I have learnt to not give power to his words and also step up for my boudaries.
We have dealt with deeper issues. I get more sensitive when hungry or sleepy. He gets edgy when facing a deadline.
Now that we have gained awareness, we tell each other- hey I am hungry right now. Give me space...and he does and vice versa.
One thing I know is that we both don;t want to have fights and have managed to go four months without.

People tend to abuse each other unconsciously. I find myself being critical because my family was harsh and I don't notice it today. He is perfectionist and gets angry about things because thats how he was treated and he demands the same standards he expects or himself.
We talk about this and then easen up ad loosen up. I have made mistakes by not being aware of how his sensitivity is wired. And so has he. We are learning to talk without overwhelming each other and thus do not make each other powerless, cornered and helpless and then lash back.
Many living beings act like that- when hurt, wounded, scared, they attack. We have been learning not to come across like that to each other.
And then we are oversensitive. I start to squirm over a slightly loud music, he can't stand certain tastes. We both have to not take it personally and let it go if we feel rejected over little things the other did.
In the past we would fight and have big painful fights over the silliest of things.
Now when I see him getting edgy, I give him space. We talk about it layer. Maybe he felt that I am criticizing him and misunderstood me.
Maybe I am getting PMS (I am very sensitive and also edgy during that time) and he stays away from getting into my space.
I used to bring up discussions late at nights. That was so counterproductive. But I was ignorant. Now we don't overwhelm each other and have discussions when well-fed, rested etc.
These are the things I am talking about. He feels abused by me and if he were to post, people would think he is the victim. He probably is from his end. And so am I.
And we both want to stop being victims/abusers and learn to understand each other, love each other, grow up and work towards a more harmonious and loving marriage.
Also we both have had difficult pasts and so neither is particularly totally healthy by certain definitions. Yet in one year we have come a long way and both of us have healed and grown more healthy and mature.
Anyways I am not trying to make justifications in either side of a debate. Each situation is unique.
Who know how the marraige would turn out in the future?
Presently, I am happy to be in it. Not so happy with certain elements on it, hopeful that we would make it work and open to advice on healing from a mutually abusive or misunderstaning place and improve our communication and understanding and love for each other. Thats the reason I posted and I thank everyone for their point of view. Its helpful to have those ideas and different perspectives, all helpful in one way or another.

All I can do again is say what I pick up on and I see red flags, extremely similar ways of believing that it was me, that I was also abusing him. One thing I know is that everyone now and then can be nasty. And if that's deemed as an abusive thing then so be it but I think there are MASSIVE differences between people who are non abusive (but also flawless) and people who ARE abusive!

Anyway I wanted to again shed light on things I've picked up on.


""""", I also know that he is not aware of his patterns until I gain clarity""""

Until you gain clarity? How is he even going to take responsibility of his patterns if he has to wait for you to gain the clarity. I know what your gonna say and your working with him. You believe that this man needs guidance on his behaviour because he really doesn't know when he's being abusive.

Yep sounds like every single other abuser out there, most if not all usually don't admit, are aware or will take responsibility for their actions, it's usually the victim of their patterns who have to manage it!

But tell me, is he abusive to everyone? A stranger on the street? The police? My ex he gave me the image that he wouldn't take any crap off anyone and he would boost about confrontations all the time ( his past or more than usual when I wasn't there like at work) I now know that this was an image to convince me that he couldn't help being abusive and that he didn't know he was! Only until I had enough and was ever ending the relationship did he suddenly realise his ways and would vow to change them!

Why would your husband ever need to take responsibility for his behaviour and patterns because by believing that your the one to gain clarity on them your also aiding him in staying in a pattern of unawareness!

If you want him to work on improving his behaviour surely your gonna have to set free the responsibility and leave it for him to own it. After all it does belong to him! You mention if u point out his behaviour things do change?!?!? So you've only had to do it the once then because change had taken place???? Or is this part of his pattern that your accommodating by being responsible for pointing it out?

If your going around in circles then nothing is changing, you'd only have to do it once and he realise and change, what is really happening is that he's stopping doing what he's doing because your calling him out on it, but he's not changing!


""""My disconnecting emotionally or being upset over things also hurt him. """""

So when u say disconnecting emotionally you mean the opposite of being upset over things? So you switch your emotions off sometimes and it shows. He picks up on the fact that emotionally you've checked out for however long. This hurts him!!
And also if you check in emotionally and get upset then this hurts him!

Sorry to keep doing this but I see no difference here from what my ex was like. If I tried to emotionally disconnect so then I wouldn't get upset because if I was I would hurt him he would still be hurt.

So he would be not hurt by someone who was totally emotionally available for him and at the same time didn't get upset for myself when going through something upsetting!

Yes this is a way of them wanting it all but again not taking responsibility for anything he may have done or having to deal with or witness your upset over other things in life that are all a part of life!


""""And then we are oversensitive"""""

Any sensitivity can never be over the top! Even when your husband is sensitive to something it's valid, sensitivity belongs to THAT individual and abuse is not sensitivity, abuse is actions and treatment of others that is not acceptable or respectful. So if a human being is sensitive (over) is just what we are taught by significant others so then we shut up and don't complain or show our emotions!

"""These are the things I am talking about. He feels abused by me and if he were to post, people would think he is the victim. He probably is from his end. And so am I. """"

Yes most abusive people also take on the role of victim. It's their core belief that they are victims in life. Most non abusive people don't think that way and usually although can recognise that they are subject to abuse and could possibly be victims, they also usually take on the responsibility that they are also the abuser! Usually the real abuser will be the victim whilst being unaware of the abuse they inflict until it is pointed out and even sometimes they still refuse to see until they are about to loose their victims and even sometimes they refuse to ever see and never become responsible for their actions!

Once when my ex was coming down to see me and I had started to put my foot down he used to cry all the time. I used to feel guilty and cuddle him and apologise for I guess putting my foot down!

When he used to try and control me I used to tell him to leave my house. He didn't like this and would cry again and beg me not to throw him out to which I wouldn't (I did once when he threatened to go down to my elderly mothers home and put bricks throu her windows because I wanted to tell his mother that we had a baby together and that she has a grandchild of which he was trying to keep a secret)
Who's justified ??? Him keeping our daughter a secret or me wanting to blow his cover? Did it warrant my mother having her windows smashed ? He was so upset for weeks afterwards because I actually threw him out and it had upset him!


Anyway my point is that during this period he became the victim of me (putting my foot down) or the consequences of his actions and one day he mentioned how horrible it was for him and I felt guilty, took on board that I was abusing him and stopped!

Yep I never again told him to leave my house! Even if he was abusive, I was so scared of being the abusive one that I changed, he didn't have to he just went around in his own patterns!


You say you want to put the work in, that's your choice, but you have to aim for real change, put him to the test if u belief that change is possible.

Get him to take responsibility for ALL his behaviours! Point it out to him. He'll never really change until he actually changes this.

No more rely on yourself to gain clarity to then point it out so then he can take your cue! He needs to learn how to own it for himself.

My guess is that you'll be net with some resistance because the difference that I mentioned between abusive people and non abusive people is that abusive people are .....' Always victims, never take responsibility, are self unaware (by convenient choice) will stay in patterns, don't want consequences but want full support. Always give off an image of themselves that's false. Usually control their abuse to family and friends and do not abuse outside of this chosen circle. Believe that they have the right to do so as long as the other allows them to or will ignore that anyway and do what they want. Are chancers and will take a chance at getting away with whatever! '

Non abusive people tend to ..... 'Take responsibility for their reactions and actions. Take responsibility for managing, fixing and healing their partners. Try to accommodate and live conflictingly while they try to reach the ever moving impossible changing goal posts that their abusers set up. Usually try to be in between these goal posts to keep the abusive partner happy. Usually recognise that they too on some level need happiness to survive the partnership and are usually the ones to strive to find this happiness thinking that I'f only they can save their partner, understand their partner, listen to their partner then their partner would follow suite. Usually use terms such as "too sensitive, it's just just them it's me as well, I get too emotional" whilst at the same time they fully recognise and accept and vow to heal their partners hurt by again accommodating their behaviour so then their partner is happy!'

So yeah, go and do what u must do but recognise what real change is and ask for it.

You said that if your husband were to post in here that everyone would think he was the victim....does he put as much effort into fixing your relationship by joining websites? Getting info on abuse? Seeking out whatever avenue he can do to make the changes? Has he joined a group and said "I am abusive" like you have said in the jealously group and here "I am jealous"

What you need to make this work is equality! He needs to be as productive as you are, putting in some effort to work with you is one thing but actually making those steps as big as what your doing is a whole other thing. That's when you'll sing from the same hymn book so to speak!

Anything else is really quite simply you managing an abusive partner and trying to make it better by trying out new things!

It's just management ! It's actually acceptance but how YOU can live with it and manage it to a place that's liveable.

Have a look at what needs changing and good luck!

I'm not hopeful u will get beyond just managing it, but only because of the first thing that popped out at me that you get the clarity and you tell him when he's abusive, your the one to point out his behaviour! Keep doing it and he will never need to do it for himself. Stop doing it and ask him to develop this for himself and then you'll see real change to the point where you no longer having to manage him!

Also got an interesting question for the topic if staying for the kids,

Tell me, when the kids are grown up and have moved out, will u stay with him then? Are you really staying for the kids or are u staying out of fear of leaving?

So if your only staying to protect the children so then they don't need unsupervised visits then when they are adults and grown up themselves then you'll be leaving him??

Good question Kazb!

I take things one day at a time. If I'm not enjoying his company after the kids leave. I will leave. I have told him this

I am not afraid of being on my own. What I won't do is uproot and displace my children because my husband is a bully.
If I left he would have sole access to the kids during his unsupervised visitation, wouldn't he??
I've noticed not one member has been willing to answer my question about that.
I'll ask again.

If your partner or spouses are such horrible company to be around and you can not take another minute of their verbal abuse and "making you feel bad about yourself"
( Now I'm talking about non violent abuse here )
If they are not abusive enough to be granted Supervised Custody only...
Why are you getting out but subjecting your children to unsupervised visitation and/or joint custody??



Answers welcome here!!

I can't answer because my ex has walked away from my daughter, but what I do see on here is that most people have been subject to being brought up living with abuse, no one has ever said that the reason as to why they have ended up repeating abusive patterns and cycle dynamics is because they had to visit their abusive parent or a significant other, usually is when living with abuse in the home where it effects the children more than anything!

My dad was abusive and my mother split up with him when I was three, I saw my dad every Sunday and I can tell u that because I lived in a home with my mum that was stable and she was none abusive, when my dad would act the way he did I just thought he was nuts! It never had a massive impact on my life because I knew it wasn't normal.

I think the main reason as to why women leave their anusive partners in relation to the children is because in doing so they are giving their children a separate life to which they can compare from a stable environment to a non stable environment.

The anusive man will always be an abusive man. The mother is not responsible for that, and unfortunately the court system needs updating when it comes to protecting children from abusive parents but does your husband abuse your children?

Because if someone's husband does then all that women is doing is keeping their children there as prey but if a women was to leave, inform the authorities, put up a fight then at the very least she is doing more for her children than she could ever do than if she stayed and kept them living in anxiety and firmware 24/7.

U can't stop abuse, but u can minimise it.

If you think it's selfish that women get themselves and their children living in a perminant abuse free home then to me that sounds like its just a really strong belief system and personal thing of yours, and if I see it as leaving yor kids to fend for themselves, I see it as giving your kids am alternative life and like I said its the court system that the selfish ones for putting children in harms way, and of course the abusive parent.

And if the parent is abusing their child then that's against the law and things can be done.

My dad never abused us, he was abusive to my mother only, he just was strange in my memory and I just used to think of him as someone who was a lost soul.

My mother leaving him was never something that made me and my sister have to fend for ourselves!

You make really good points, Kazb!

We all see things from the perspective we grew in our childhood etc...

For me .. I know I would be gripped with anxiety sending my children for visitation. Not because I think my husband would beat them or anything.. but it's just not what I want.


This support group has helped me so much. It has really put things back into perspective for me. Thank you all so much!!
It has upped my ability to feel Grateful and put the brakes on what was fast becoming a tendency to feel sorry for myself.
Reading your posts coupled with all of the books on verbal and emotional abuse I have been reading has really inspired me to make positive changes.

It's funny because when I started to stand up for myself in a calm way.. and work on "Healthy Narcissism" It has made me really aware of my value and at the same time it has made me more appreciative of my husband's value. I'm not letting him off the hook for his bad behavior at all.. it's just so much more complex then I can articulate.

If I think of a way .. I'll post about it later.

Have a great day !

"I've noticed not one member has been willing to answer my question about that.
I'll ask again."

I tried to answer why I (when I was a child) had thought it would of been better off that my Mother had left my abusive Father in an earlier post, but I assume I didn't get my point across correctly or because it was coming from someone who is not with an abuser currently and has children it is not the same? I can say this, experiencing abuse as both a child and as an adult, whether it be physical or emotional, any of it is damaging to all parties involved, and I personally choose to distance myself from it if at all possible.
While I cannot advise a grown adult what to do as they are capable of making thier own decisons, I do feel it is unhealthy for a child to be subjected to it long term. Again, this is my opinon and I am speaking from what it has done to my self-esteem and worth. :(
The decision rests with each person and each parent as it is your child and your life, hopefully you will take into account your childs well being and safety with each situation. As I cannot really debate impartially because abuse has harmed me throughout so many years of my life, this will be all I can comment, just wanted to explain my thoughts on this.
For whoever chooses to remain with the abusive spouse and work on things, I do wish you the best and hope that you can work things out with minimal damage to either party. For anyone posting on here, I really do feel this is a supportive place and I try to be supportive and objective, and perhaps when it comes to a child's safety, due to my own experiences, I lose my objectiveness.

I have been staying away from this thread out of respect for the OP's desire not to be given any advice to leave, and because in my own personal experience (both watching my parents and from my own life) the more effort that is put in to staying together, the more damage is done by abuse, and so my circumstances and knowledge are not helpful for what is being asked. I do believe that every situation is different and that we ought all to be allowed - in fact, we MUST be allowed to make our own choices based on our own circumstances. That said, (and I will say sorry for hijack), I am going to respond a little to Christy's now twice-asked question.

I tend to be in favour of the leaving for the sake of the children for two reasons. The first is that, instead of the children living with abuse all the time, they only have to live with it, at worst, on visitation. And if abuse can be proved, perhaps not even that (depending on location and court system etc). And the second is for the lesson it teaches the kids - that abuse is not acceptable. Staying teaches the kids what a "loving" relationship is and ought to be - and what they ought to expect when they enter into romantic relationships of their own.

Christy ... have you never left your kids alone with your H?

Oh Hi Joanie... I don't recall that post.. I'll go back and look

I see what you're saying that as a child you felt it would have been better if your Mother would have left your abusive Father.

Would the court have denied him visitation? Or was he only abusive to your Mother and not you?

Hi livin!

For small amounts of time, livin.... I'm a stay at home mom so I'm usually here.

I'll have to hugely disagree with thinking that it's better to only have to deal with the abuse on visitation!

Let them deal with his defining bossy ways without Mama bear to intervene?? No Way!

Again.. I'm only stating what works for me. I'm not miserable, My husband's behavior doesn't make me feel bad about myself. It used to.. but I've changed. I am now able to appreciate the good and deal with the bad in a way I couldn't before.