Don't know your whole story, but it sounds like a "reaction set up." they say things to make us angry and lay down rules and boundaries so they can pretend that were over barring. Did you ask your son if his dad slaps him?
I don't believe in striking a child in anyway. Don't know what the law says about it and where the line is between abuse and discipline, I only know that I feel it is about a parent releasing frustration and anger on a child, and has nothing to do with discipline. MHO.

This is one of those cases where I do believe it's physical abuse. While I'm one of those that takes a controversial side in thinking some spanking is okay under VERY serious circumstances, I don't believe it should be an automatic go-to on a regular basis enough that it's seen as no big deal. The fact that your husband is not only lying about this type of punishment, but seems to think of it as no biggie enough that it's news to you, has me very concerned. And lie or not, he seems to think it's acceptable if your daughter, who is still a child herself, judges when to hand out such a punishment.

I fully admit that I'm a bit biased because I put very strict circumstances on when and how I think it's acceptable and safe, but I also feel that parents should agree upon what's acceptable for both of them. Your husband didn't do this. There's no way he couldn't realize that is kinda a pretty important thing to bring up.

Whether or not it physically hurts the boy isn't my biggest concern. The fact that it was hidden from you is, as is that it's happening at all when you are not okay with it.

I am concerned for your boy's wellbeing and I don't mean to minimize that he's being hit/slapped. It is definitely a big deal and even I wouldn't be okay with it. But I'm more worried about what else hasn't been said by your husband and whether it could escalate since he's been doing this without expressing his own limitations, other than how HE thinks the boy feels.

Alot of people give their kids a smack bottom when they are talking or a clip round the ear...it's very old school parenting

i am not saying its right or ok i am just saying thats how things used to be done

it's upto you however how things are done in your home and obviously you need to check the law aswel

Upside the head?!?

That's by the ear and can cause permanent damage.

Under what circumstances is that appropriate?

Yes it is physical abuse. No one should be slapped upside the head. Siblings will continue to have altercations for various reasons. But clearly 15 year olds are not yet adults, even letting go of the cup and little bro hitting himself upside the head seems to be a kind of passive-aggressive abuse to me.
Your DH saying that he and your daughter frequently hit the 8 yr old upside the head is abuse AND a red flag to me. If your daughter does do this - she likely learned it from him. If your daughter does not do this, it sounds like he is trying to set her up for the blame the next time he leaves a welt on the 8 yr old. My guess is that this does hurt the 8 yr old. My experience is that the emotional abuse can be far worse than the physical abuse. (Your daughter letting the cup hit him makes him look stupid, feel lesser than and strips him of what little self esteem an 8 yr old boy can muster.)
Sounds like everyone could benefit from family counseling to learn to treat each other a little more lovingly.
Also consider that a 15 yr old left in charge will eventually get more and more resentful. Make sure she has time for her own social life. She is not ready to be a mom, so don't give her too much responsibility for an 8 yr old. Consider the 8 yr old having a sleep over at a friend's or getting an adult professional child care worker next time you are going out.
Also, how about doing some social or fun things as a family and practice being nice to each other.

I wanted to add I am not saying its OK just saying it usedto be accepted...

To me, there's a lot that's
disturbing about this story,
overall.

It's my opinion that
there's no justification
or rationalization for
using corporal punishment
as discipline. Yes, I know
it's what was standard for
many years. So was wife beating.

It's impossible to say, from
this vantage point, if your
daughter hits your son
or not. But I'd follow up
with lots of careful watching
and also some gentle
sharing of what's appropriate
touching (of any one else)
and what's not. This is truly
a fundamental issue.

Hitting doesn't discipline.
It instills future violence
or future shame and
low self-regard, which
invites violence.

No, you are not freaking out for nothing ! This is how an abusive home life transforms onto children. Children learn by what they see in the home. Just because your husband has not ''hit'' you yet..in time he will...Verbal abuse almost always ends in physical abuse in some shape or form. You are being abused by your husband. His attitude is that of an abuser...Your children are being ''egged on'' to physically abuse each other by your husband.. and he is physically abusing them...Anytime a person is hit in the head, on a constant basis, this could cause brain damage later on in his life... You are right,,this is not o.k. This has to be stopped right now between your children. Sit down with them, when husband is not home, and explain how you feel, and why. There is never an excuse for abuse of any kind...Physical or verbal...I know about brain injury, as a child, my father used to physically beat me up on a constant basis. And yes, this pertains to your son because of these attacks, I now have some brain injury now, as an adult. Anytime a child is hit in their head or ears enough times, this has to have a bad effect on their body, as an adult. And, your husband might be ''hitting upside'' your son's head more than you are aware of...and probably harder than you think. And listen to what Ilene W is saying, she is a professional.

Well sorry to go against the grain here but sometimes people believe it's ok to spank or smack because they were brought up with this behaviour, it used to be ok and they don't know any better...sometimes people need to awakened to reality and re-educated....and taught new ways to discipline their kids and control their impulses which would naturally occur if this is what they had witnessed as a child.

Learnt behaviour

I have a friend who genuinely believed it was ok to discipline her child through a smack infact i have several. None of these people have abusive intent and they geneuinely believe they are doing no wrong and would likely stop if they knew they were and were properly educated.

Personally I think that is grossly different from being an on purpose abuser with malicious intent.

Sorry....feel free to trample me but this is how I see it

In your case obviously only your H knows whats in his heart and what his intentions are and it's impossible for you to know. I am just saying there is a 'chance' he might need re-educating.

Equally though please don't use my opinion to minimise his behaviour and the potential damage it could cause....you still need to set a good example to your kids so they don't learn the same behaviour and the cycle continue .....

Peace out.....

Blackdogg, it is a heated issue. I chose that my children would not be hit , but I had to fight for that, and I did. No one was going to hit them, but believe me, I was lectured by so many people, especially older people. How do you change the world? Violence has been accepted and taught from generation to generation. Parents teaching children that "it's for your own good." Is it any wonder that people are conflicted.

Not a fan of corporal punishment. I'm not going to get into all the reasons why, as I'm not sure that is the point of why you are posting this-to start a debate on corporal punishment.

Firstly, your H is the king of crazy making-it's his go-to abuse tactic-so it would not surprise me in the least if your daughter was being honest and your instinct was correct-that she is not going around hitting her brother like your H suggested she is.

Then you have to question if your H is hitting your son, and if so, why you've never noticed it. Because it would not surprise me if your H WASN'T hitting your son, crazy-makers can make stuff up just to make stuff up. And if he IS hitting your son on the head, and you've never seen it-that is a concern-because that cannot be a coincidence-if you know what I mean. If he is doing this because you are not around to see it who knows how hard it is, how often it is, or what ELSE he might be doing when you are not around to your kids.

The World Health Organization defines violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, **threatened or actual**, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, **psychological harm**, maldevelopment, or deprivation", but acknowledges that the inclusion of "the use of power" in its definition expands on the conventional meaning of the word. This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces. However, generally, anything that is turbulent or excited in an injurious, damaging or destructive way, or presenting risk accordingly, may be described as violent or as occurring violently, even if not signifying violence (by a person and against a person).

So basically, using physical force in a way which makes someone become injured physically, or even fear injury is physical abuse. Which is why throwing things is physical abuse, grabbing, blocking...and it is the results of the act which define it's intention in doing so, not what someone consciously decided they were trying to do.

I know your son struggles with anger, it will NOT help him to have ANYONE put their hands on him in any unwanted way.

And maybe the most disturbing thing of all about your H's behavior is that he seems so dismissive of your concerns about this and your opinion that this shouldn't be happening. Did you tell him you didn't want him or your daughter hitting your son? And if so, what was his response?

I haven't taken the time to read all the responses, so forgive me if I have repeated what others have said.

IMHO, it is NEVER EVER ok to hit someone 'upside' the head or anywhere else on the head or face - or anywhere else, for that matter! Some believe that a tap on the hands or a swat on the butt are ok. But, I think there are more appropriate and certainly more effective consequences for negative behaviors. (And, IMHO, there should be appropriate consequences for positive behavior as well.)

All hitting, slapping, punching, smacking, whacking, paddling, tapping, pushing, jerking, etc. does is teach that it's ok to be violent and it creates fear and loathing in the target of that violence.

I am also going to contradict your DH by saying that it sure as hell DOES hurt children!! He's a perfect example of how it hurts them!

CHILDREN LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE
AND
THEY LIVE WHAT THEY LEARN.

So my answer to your question is yes and yes. Yes, it's abuse and yes it's a big freaking fat red flag.

If it were me, I'd install a hidden nanny cam and not tell anyone, especially the DH.

IF (and that sounds like a big if) your daughter is hitting your son, I'm betting she learned it from DH.

Either way, I'd get myself and the kids into therapy WITHOUT DH ASAP. And then I'd dump DH permanently.

Of course, that's just my opinion and therefore, I am not telling you what to do. I'm only telling you what I would do now and DEARLY WISH I had known to do and done back then. I see the damage that was done to my adult kids and to every client that I work with. And, it's NOT good. It causes deep seated rage, poor self esteem, extreme fear and a myriad of other not nice things.

~healing hugs~

PS I'm sorry, but I have to ask, does DH stand for DickHead? Cuz he sure doesn't seem to be what the normal meaning of DH (Deah Husband) stands for!! Of course, that's just my opinion.

I completely agree with TrueColors.

Absolutely not OK.

Definitely abusive by DH towards all of you, whether hitting is happening of not. If it is...

From the kids perspective, in your son's 8-year-old mind, I'm trying to imagine how this feels to him. Is he sitting there wondering, "Is this abuse when I get whacked on the head? Is this violence? What does the history of parenting tell me about how I should feel when I get hit in the head?" I don't think an 8-year-old can think like that; he's probably just absorbing the experience, what it means about him, and what it means about how loved ones treat each other. How he should treat loved ones.

If this is happening, I don't mean to be alarmist, but just a warning that kids can be awful abusers of other kids....I would not leave him alone with any younger children until you figure out what has really been going on.

Also, I could see many 15-year-olds letting go of the cup to "teach him a lesson," but it is also a red flag that maybe she should not be babysitting him for longer periods. Or maybe she should take a babysitting training class where she can learn different ways to resolve conflicts. She might also be resentful of being left to babysit him, especially if he has anger issues that she can't cope with. Just a thought. My son had anger issues at this age too, and boy, do I wish I had got him counseling then, as hard as that would have been. Because at 16, even at 14, it's really almost impossible to make a bigger kid go to counseling. My son stopped hitting, he instead turned it inside and became depressed, socially anxious, and failing at school.

Hugs to you! I'm sorry this is happening and I hope you feel strengthened by these posts.

I'd love to have you find some man 3 times as large as HIM hit HIM upside the head and see how it feels!

What would your son be doing that made your H feel that it was okay??

I never hit my daughter. She's 9. My son's a handful at 2.5. When he gets upset, I just come down to his level, speak kindly to him, rub his chest and take deep breaths. He looks right into my eyes and calms down.

We HAVE to model correct behavior. Period.

Your son needs you to be his hero. Tell your H that he is on notice and if you discover he ever lays a hand on your children again, you are filing for divorce and taking the kids.

I was in the other room when my youngest, probably about 8 at the time, (about 20 years ago) was sitting at the table, when I heard my mother tell him to eat his dinner and I heard the smack when she hit him on side the head. Shane started to sob and she said "I didn't hit you that hard" His heart had been broken in that second she slapped him as no one had ever hit him like that before.
That's when I remembered all the times she had done that to me.
It never happened again as I never left her alone with him again.

That is a horrible tradition that could be passed down. A huge degrading thing to do to a child.