Your mom is your mom, and she is the way she is. The only way she will change or start to change is if she wants to.

You talking with her, could have some positive, but remember, one day at a time.

One of the biggest problems I had with my dad was learning to let certain things go in 1 ear and out the other. But, it is something you have to learn to do. Remember, we can't change them, only ourselves.

I agree finding a happy medium would be great, but if you are not prepared to let some things go, it will just be a vicious cycle. I am not saying to just humor her, or even give in. I am saying that as you come through this journey, your strength is, and will continue to get stronger to do what's best for you, and still love and care about your mom, but also learn to just let things go.

We as the children, have to take the upper hand, and actually be the bigger person, even though we would like it to be the other way around. Maybe your mom, will see how much effort you are putting into this and yourself, and hopefully some might rub off on her. That does happen, but don't focus on making that happen, only what's best for you.

Today is a new day, first day of the rest of your life. If you try, and it doesn't work, at least you know you tried, and that is nothing to hang your head for.

I try to live my life with no regrets. It helps you to push forward, and feel okay with your choices. But be prepared that many times, things just aren't going to work out as you would have liked. But you tried, and that is all we can do. And you could be proud of that.

Hugss

Everything you said resonated with me. I think if she calls later I will say I know I need to let things go but I'm not able to at this time and still need some time to be ok with not getting what I feel I needed out of her. I just sent several texts laying it out, stuff that is even embarssing to me because I look like a jealous brat but I don't care. It's out there and she can do what she wants with it now. I said if she had a solution to call me. Good enough.

I was raised by a
cold, controlling,
narcissistic mother.

I was verbally, emotionally
and physically abused.

With due respect, I can't
get behind SkeerDcat's
optimistic hope that
there could be some
positive, in regards to
attempting to share
your concerns with
your mother.

The reason I feel this
way is that
dysfunctional behavior
patterns in abusive adults
are virtually never open
to positive changes.
Please note that I
said "virtually."

When my mother arrived
at her final years in her
mid-eighties, without the
support of her deceased,
loving husband and with
my older sibling
verbally and financially
abusing HER ----

she finally became non-abusive.

My guess as to why is
that, by that point, she
had no power left.
(Metaphorically, my
sibling, who'd stolen
her assets, threatened
her with having her
electric shut off! I
was a few feet away
when that person -----
hissing the words a
few inches from her
nose, after she told
them that a disconnect
notice had arrived, said:
"So, then you'll sit in
the dark.")

You confusuion is based
on you wanting to have
a loving relationship
with your mother, but
being faced with the
constant reality of
her abusive
behavior patterns.

My emphatic suggestion
to you is (if you haven't
already), find a HIGHLY
qualified therapist whose
SPECIALTY is working
to repear the emotional
injuries of growing up in
a dysfunctional family
system, and invest the
money, time and effort
to do the work to heal
YOURSELF. My
educated opinion is
that healing the relationship
is virtually impossible. She
has already shown that
she'd rather inflict the same
kind of injuries on you children
that she has on you, rather
than do the work that SHE
has to do, to behave functionally,
in a loving and mature manner.

Work to heal Yourself
and to protect your children
from her obviousl toxicity.

Sending you hugs
and wishes for
healing and
better days
ahead.

I second what IlleneW said.

I talked to her, now I'm confused. Had to try it, opened up communication between us but probably won't utilize it. She said she would love to spend more time on my sons but I have a feeling it would be a one time thing then back to square one. Idk what to think now about any of it. I have faults she helped me see lol. I'll take it with a grain of salt. I feel better that she feels better because she was crying on the phone. She is hurting. So I'm glad she doesn't or its at least a little less. I need to work this all out again. Thanks for the support guys, hugs.

I'm sure the situation will evolve.

My mother used to cry all the time, and it used to tear me up. Well one time, she started crying and telling me how hard her childhood was, and I was just unmoved. As soon as she saw that, she stopped crying, as if a switch had been turned off.

It doesn't sound like your mother has any justification for not calling your son on his birthday. I can say that my mother's whole approach to life and other people is defensive and strategic. Love doesn't really come into the picture. I don't think she feels safe enough to love, so what she goes for is power. I always wished I could grow big enough to help her heal, but I've realized that healing myself has to come first, and I'm not strong enough to take care of us both,

Pick apart time lol. I was told "they" as in my parents, when I've never had an issue with my dad, only have problems with me and not the other two kids. I'll be the first to admit that I am a take no shit from nobody type of person. I'm sensitive but not oversensitive. While I find my brother more chill and roll with the punches and I know for a fact my sister and I have had long discussions about my mom but she chooses to distance herself for the majority of the part. I shine light on what upsets me and I may cry and yell when it's happening but we are, after all, all individuals with different approaches with her.

She asked that I keep on the topic on hand and not drag up past stuff into current fights which I agree, it's not fair and does tend to escalate things however it's clear there still needs some healing hence being so close to the surface when I get upset. She did those things to me. She should apologize for them and at the very least or most even just validate me. It was not normal to be treated that way and I deserved better, period. When I brought that up I still felt unheard.

I felt like I was kind of coerced into agreeing to send my kids there. Just so she can prove she's capable of being a good grandma. I said above all issues it's the fact the my kids didn't get the good relationships with grandparents that I got and I wanted more for them. I know she wouldn't hurt them or anything I just have this feeling of I don't know what but that I don't want this to be fixed right now. It's going too fast for me. That's exactly it, how can things go from that bad to this good in one day. It's not stable to me.

I felt better not talking to her but it didn't feel good when she contacted me because I got worried my dad was sick, he has a heart condition. I don't want to ever be out of the loop. I refused in January to go to any more family functions because my sister is a complete arrogant asshole that it's become unbareable to be in the same room as her. That won't change and my mom won't give up on changing that. How is any of this fixable? Nothing was solved today except she knows how serious I was about the kids.

Vent over.

Jenn,

Your mom just spins you around until you are caught in a rip-tide of emotion and you don't even know which way is up anymore. I know the feeling, that abuse fog, that confusion, that guilt, not feeling like I have a right to my perspective or my feelings. I'm halfway there just remembering all those horrid gaslighing convos I used to have with my ex-which sound just like your mom's.

I believe you may be in that place right now where you may need consistent validation before you can untangle what are truly your feelings and those your mom dumps on you as "your stuff" which is really "her stuff."

I wanted to point out to you an inconsistency you might not be aware of:

"I tried to be firm and to the point that I don't wish to speak to her....."

The only message your mother is getting right now is "She's talking to me!" Rather than a firm message that you aren't going to speak to her right now. Your boundary didn't stay up very long when she started pushing against it. A stronger and clearer message is to say you aren't going to speak to her......and then you don't. This will also tell you a lot-because I'd guess she would respond in typical abuser fashion of stomping all over that boundary with more and more furious attempts for you to break No Contact - which can really help people put their abuser's behavior into perspective.

I know her explanation of not calling your son on his Bday makes sense to you "sort of"-however as an outsider looking in I have trouble buying that and it seems part of you does to. It would just be so typical abuser to hurt you by hurting your son-plus her actions have the added advantage of being able to turn this around on you-that it is YOUR fault in a way because you said you didn't want her calling (she supposedly thought). Abusers are so good at working out situations where they can get atcha multiple ways. You seem to have a gut feeling this is a manipulation. I think you should trust that gut feeling. You seem to have not lost your instincts through your abusive childhood-you might want to try practicing not talking yourself out of your intuition so quickly. Give yourself the benefit of the doubt more often-not her.

Downplaying her abuse is NOT taking responsibility. When one does not take responsibility they do not change anything. So-another glaring red flag there that you can continue to expect the same from her no matter what double speak she's putting down. Then she uses guilt by saying YOUR choices are going to hurt a lot of people??? This is another manipulation, and yet another refusal to acknowledge her role and influence in your choices- so not taking responsibility AGAIN. Plus is strikes me as narcissistic to assume that because your choice hurts her (and when I said hurt I don't mean her feelings are hurt-she experiences pain, frustration, and anxiety at not having the same level of control) your going no contact or distancing yourself from her will hurt others??? Seems like disordered logic-what goes on between the two of you is between you and doesn't have anything to do with anyone else. She is trying to control the outcome of your behavior by saying such things.

I don't buy the tears thing either. Seen lots and lots of tears from my ex but he was certainly never moved enough to work on himself or make any changes. Worked well, didn't it? Did you feel terrible she was crying? Did you quiet down pretty quickly? Shift from anger to guilt in seconds? A well placed crying jag can do that.

Please do not let this woman become your measurement of your "faults"-because she is pointing them out to you as means to an end. The best defense is a good offense and your conversation with your mother demonstrates that. You try and talk about things that hurt you and she turns it around on you. That kind of thing has no place in a conversation where someone is taking responsibility for their actions. Notice a pattern here?

The more I read about her the more signs of narcissism I see. She is lumping in her feelings with your dad's feelings. I would guess that he either never had much negative to say about your relationship with him at all since the two of you don't have a poor relationship, or he may have made kind of noncommittal comments when your mom went on a rant like "ah-huh" or "oh yeah?" It's very typical of Narcissists to think that naturally everyone thinks like they do, or feels like they do-because of course they are the center of the universe. They can't separate what others need, want, think from what they need, want, think (called enmeshment). Like a 2 year old. Narcs are all just really big two year olds who throw fits when they don't get their way. And comparing you to your siblings like that-subtle, seemingly harmless but again is completely incomparable with a healthy, appropriate conversation which SOLVES things and is constructive. Fitting this into your mother's pattern I call this more abuse.

You are a unique individual-you are Jenn and that's all you need to be. You don't handle things the way your siblings do-but there is still not one single thing wrong with the way you think and feel-it's wrong for your mother to act like there is because your way of handling issues, more openly or emotionally or whatever because she thinks its a pain in the arse.

Asking you not to bring up a laundry list of her offenses does make sense-usually its good to focus on one thing at a time, however watch out that she doesn't do that to you while you are successfully not doing that to her. I find whenever an abuser asks you not to do something-that doesn't mean they won't do it every time it would work out well for them. What is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.

However-having said that I would guess you do that out of anger. Pent up, unresolved anger. See how that works-it doesn't go away it just comes out sideways. And I would guess you have a LOT more where that came from, buried deep and layered under many things. Could be just the tip of the iceberg.

Please know-just letting it go is not a solution. There is a difference between "letting something go" and processing something and moving forward. You need to process before you can move forward, and you can't process feelings you are stuffing down and away from conscious evaluation. I think you'll find a simple decision to "let it go" doesn't work nearly that simply or elegantly.

I understand your concern about your father (and please don't think for a moment your mother doesn't think of your love for your father as another opportunity at leverage or to manipulate or whatever abuser thing she decides to do). Is there a way you can get updates on your dad and not involve your mother? Like another family member? How difficult would it be for you to have contact with your father and not her?

She seems so sincere when we "make up" but this time it does feel different. I'll admit I crumbled under her and felt ashamed and vulnerable again. I see exactly what you're saying while still feeling this guilt knowing she is capable of hurting me. She does use whatever she needs ie my dad, flat out lying and guilting and where to back away hurt and when to be firm. Ugh I wish I never talked to her. The cool thing is now its not over my head, that unnecessary guilt of her feelings. She thinks all is good and I'm human, I just don't want anyone hurting plain and simple. So it feels good that she is sitting there in bliss while I can still keep my distance.

I am such an idiot putting my kids in the line of fire by saying she could take them. My dad will be there so I'm not worried about anything, he honestly does tell her off when she needs it and he's always been a fair man. I just think now I'm going to go and tell the boys they can go, let them be happy and then it will all stop. I know what I need to do I just wish I didn't force the issue with my sons. I need to just cut her off again.

Will I ever be strong against her? Feel confident in my decision? Not get sucked back in to her abuse and disgusting ways? I'm so mad right now at myself for getting suckered again. When I even discussed with my T on how I should handle the calls. Ugh face palm!!!

You are so insightful on all of this, does the knowledge help? All of you bring unique knowledge and I'm siting here with my head spinning like crazy lol. Thank you all so much!!!!!!

I'm much older than you with a lot of therapy behind me, and still don't have clarity or closure about my mother. My father was extremely abusive, so next to him she looked good - took me a long while to see her as abusive. So I am benefiting from this thread as well.

About your mother comparing you to the other kids and saying they didn't have problems with your siblings - that doesn't mean anything because different kids in a family can be assigned different roles and be treated very differently. Some families have a scapegoat who catches all the negative projections of the parents. How could that kid relate to the parents the same way?

Donna I'm so sorry you had two bad parents, that's incredibly difficult to even comprehend from my perspective. One is plenty. Yep I've always identified with being the black sheep, problem child and whatever proverbial insult to add in there. Ugh I could just slap these types of people because I look at my sons and couldn't imagine doing a quarter of the shit they've done to us to my sons. I can't even comprehend why someone would disrespect an innocent kid for....I don't even know what reason there could be. It's so gross.

There were some great times as a child, holidays and family holidays were so fun, once you got past the screaming chaos when packing and the promise that mommy dearest would threaten to stay home because she's frustrated with something. I mean we all get mad, but to get mad every single time gets pretty freaking old lol.

Have a great night and thanks for perspective. Wish I was there with you but all in good time :) kudos :)

She asked that I quit over analyzing things, take things at face value. When I confronted her about the ill-timed meme. I knew she wouldn't admit to putting it there and when I said "either you posted it without thinking which shows you don't care or you did it vengefully which shows you don't care" she said "I just don't think, I just see and hit like, it was for all kids, not just yours". I was like how could there not of been some thought, given your daughter just told you to leave her alone, that this was a bad times meme. Never did get a straight answer out of it.

Then she was like I was calling to ask if we could bring my sons bday gift to him and that her and my dad wer talking and were wondering if we could put a tent up for the kids to come for w sleep over. I was like "I call bullshit because why would dad even suggest such a thing knowing what was going on"? She's like, he knows what's going on? You talked to him? I said yup then the topic was switched for some odd reason lol. Just send another firm but kind text to not contact me again and then blocked her because I know I will engage and try to defend myself if she says anything. Some things are better left unsaid.

Please forgive me if
you've said this already
but ..... refresh my
memory. . . .

Are you in therapy
right now? You
said something
about, "T ." Is
that a therapist?

Yep just saw her this past week and will see her again in a couple weeks.