What you're experiencing is sadly, all too normal. It would help a lot if you limited your contact to email or text only. That will give you time to spot stuff. Chances of him being consistent in his stories, demands, threats, etc. are slim to none. So you'll have time to compare what he previously wrote to what he currently wrote.

In addition to keeping all communication to the written word, instead of you and him discussing, let your attorney's hash it out. That would cut it all out. And it would all be in writing.

I found during seperation i really only talked thru lawyers.
We wrote in a notebook in the kitchen, very little texting,
Less communication the better at that point. Nothing good
Was going to come out of any interactions. He had a GF
So that added fuel to our divorce fire.

I tried to stay somewhat friendly on the advise of my lawyer
So when it came time for negotiation but he ran when he Saw
me and avoided me like the plague. He could not speak to me
With a civil or respectful tone. It was awful, only conversations
Was the legal aspects nothing personal. No care or concern.

I was getting the gaslighting before the seperation among other
Lovely things. I wish i just walked away and stopped trying to
Work on the marriage and fix things. It only drove me to the edge.

Actually i wish i was smart and had left 13 years ago when he
started being Nasty toward me it only got progressively worse
until it Turned toxic. There is no going back from toxic.

Hugs

Mirandac

I can't offer any personal insight, but since you are a researcher, you might like the book "Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."
I'm in the middle of the book now. Unlike many books, it's less about the emotional recovery process and focuses on how these disordered people behave during the legal battles. I hope it will help to anticipate his tactics, so there are fewer surprises during face-to-face encounters.

My ex had Narc traits and addictive personality. I had
to Play hardball with him and we are not done yet. I
pray He comes thru so no more tangling with him. I
Am up for the battle when and if it comes. Just do not
Want to go there again. He literally hates my guts. That
Is hard to take emotionally no matter where you are at.

Hugs

Mirandac

Yes, this behavior is unfortunately normal. If he is a narcissist, he will do anything to get your goat. Will you become immune? No. But there are things you can do to make it better. First, if you must meet to talk about custody or go to court or whatever, let your lawyer do most or all of the direct talking to him. Second, practice the so-called 'grey rock' method, which essentially means to become the most nondescript, boring thing ever. No eye contact. No emotion. No answers to direct questions, only vague utterances. Starve him of his supply. If you must communicate, do so strickly via email or text. If he gets in your face wanting you to answer a question about visitation, for example, just vaguely ask him to send you the question via email because you can't really answer right now. No eye contact. No gauging the incredible anger and aggression radiating from him. No response. Just slowly move away and leave his presence. Over time, you will get better at it. And you will recover really quickly after encounters. At first with mine, it would take me days to recover. Later, only hours or even minutes. Oh, and early on, half a Xanax or so makes it easier to not care. :-)

No abuse in my relationship with my ex, but this is what I did through the divorce part of it.

99.9% of our communication was through email. My policy was to only read it once a day...at noon. Then I took at least a day to respond.

So my day went like this: Wake up, do my thing, read the respond to the previous day's emails, read the next day's emails. Rant, rave, come on DS to calm down. Go on with the rest of my day... Repeat.

By taking a day to respond. I got my emotions under control and thought out what I was saying.

My not reading emails first thing in the morning...I was able to focus on life.

My not reading them at bedtime, I was able to sleep.

He wasn't always happy that it took me a day to respond. Oh well. No court is going to look bad at me for that. Responding in 24 hours is plenty fast.

But he got used to it, and it calmed him down too.

With virtually everything on email, I could go back and read what he'd written and I'd written.

Divorce is he$$. I wish you the best,
Patti

Thank you all. This is all very, very helpful advice. Right now I have been trying to "play nice" as much as possible because I need him to sign a custody agreement so I can protect my daughter. Perhaps I am playing a futile game trying to reason with someone like this - but I have to try. I think he is afraid of going to court so I pray that it doesn't go that direction. On Friday we sat down to try to hash out a mutual agreement and one of the things we agreed on is that he's going to stop calling DD (not even 2 years old) every night. She's too little to understand the video calls and she either gets upset or distracted within 2 minutes. Not to mention that he's mostly doing it just so he can get to me. In any case, he agreed it was a good idea for the phone calls to stop. Since then he's been calling every evening saying he "just wants to check on you guys and see how you're doing" AAARgh!

I can't wait to get the custody order in place so I can start cutting him off more. I'm trying to get him to agree to a few hours visitation on the weekend with a third party bringing our daughter to meet him so I can get out of the middle.

Another thing I did was make statements like "I know that you want to talk about us, but I also know that you'll put our daughter's interests first and focus on her right now."

As for him calling to see how "you guys are doing", turn it around.

A short statement about what his daughter is doing at the moment is enough "she's sleeping", "she was grumpy today", whatever.

Pretend that you were the babysitter and giving report to the parents when they came home. If you were the babysitter, you wouldn't tell the parents about what you ate for dinner, or how your personal day went....you'd keep it just about the kid.

Even if he asks directly about you, answer as though it was just about the kid. At the second question about you, say good-bye and hang up.


There's kind-of several things going on. First...most men are clueless about how to be a father in the beginning (and many women are too). So...he's learning. Calling isn't a bad thing, but it can get intrusive really really fast.

Second, we're all taught to ask how someone is to be polite. Lets face it, we really don't want to know that the cashier was constipated last night. The question is just to be polite. Just like we don't have to share all with the cashier, I don't have to share all with my ex. If I'm breathing...I'm fine.

Third, it's hard to let go. Good-byes are hard for everyone. Abusive, narc or not....it's only human to try to do a bit of fishing. Stop. Don't share a thing. He doesn't need to know you're going to sleep, to eat, or to take another breath (okay...that one he probably needs to know).

In the beginning, I said the same thing to end every interaction. In the beginning it was just "I gotta go", then it was "I hope you have a good night". (even if I was wishing him to he$$). Figure out what works for you and stick with it.

Thanks, Patti. Yeah that's basically what I've been doing the past couple of days. If he calls and leaves a voicemail I just respond with a very brief text like "DD is fine and had a good day" or if he asks what we're up to I say "running errands." He is definitely not just trying to be polite though - he's playing games and pushing boundaries. I've told him countless times in the firmest terms possible that I do not wish to make small talk with him and that the only thing we can talk about is "business" related topics or if there is something specific going on with our daughter. He will do anything to reel me back into conversation and get me tangled up in his web.

You have to assume that every time he opens his mouth, he is spewing lies. You have to assume that everything he says is just a tactic to manipulate you and your children.

Try your best at no contact, but if you have to have a conversation; make a game out of it for yourself. Try to figure out what his intentions are by how he's acting and what he says. For example if he says;

"I'm not trying to hurt your feelings" -then his intention is to hurt your feelings.
"I'm not trying to make this harder on you" -then his intention is to make it harder for you.
"I'm not trying to turn the kids against you" etc etc.
Start looking for the hidden intention behind everything he says. (If you have a trusting nature, this will be a whole new experience for you).

When his behaviours don't match your expectations (or what would be normal) - he's trying to throw you off balance. There is ALWAYS an ulterior motive.

He's not your partner. He's not the person you had planned a life with. He is your adversary and he's very dangerous right now. A person who has gotten used to controlling you, who can no longer control you will do whatever they can to regain that power.

All of what you described is SO familiar from what I went through in my divorce from my abuser. I am so very sorry for what you're going through.

IMHO EVERYTHING an abuser does comes from a foundation of needing power and control. I feel that them operating from a place of power and control is so satisfying to them that they never learned real, authentic, egalitarian ways of interacting normally. In my experience every single thing they do no matter how benign it appears springs from that well. They are constantly pushing boundaries, watching for how you react to what they've said, constantly testing and manipulating. I don't believe they know any other way. When they are being nice, when they are generous, when they appear neutral, it's ALL means to and end. None of it is natural, it's all a calculation, at least subconsciously if not consciously. Once I got this very simple but almost unbelievable fact in my head-that it is ALL about power and control my ex became very easy to understand and predict.

Your ex does not need to know "what you are up to." I'm afraid trying to set any boundaries regarding what is appropriate conversation (trying to explain what is co-parenting discussion versus what is inappropriate "curiosity" about what you) will never get you anywhere. After all, all setting boundaries does with an abuser is infuriate them and make them push even harder at those boundaries. You'll have to endure it, and learn to cope with it because there is no co-parenting with an abuser. I would do my best to create a parallel parenting situation, you'll find it much less traumatizing, frustrating and easier to create and maintain the boundaries that you need.

I'm sure you've noticed already that it feels like his interest in his daughter is really more about an "in" with you, and that is probably because, sadly that is exactly what it is about. With my ex it was never about my son-my ex used my son mercilessly to get to me in every way he could. He would say he needed to talk to me about our son and once he'd get me on the phone it was all about how a terrible mother I was, going over his rewritten history of our relationship, and it was just another opportunity to abuse me, not to partner with me as a parent.

You already set boundaries-conversations are to be about your daughter, or the business of divorce. He's already clearly stomped all over that boundary buy asking questions like "what are you up to?" Even something as seemingly harmless as that is wrapped up in a boundary violation, and no boundary violation is ever a small thing, ESPECIALLY from an abuser.

If it were me, I would not respond to any comment that is outside of your clearly set boundaries. He texts or calls with questions like what you're up to or how you're doing I would not respond at all. If he engages in this conversation face to face I would simply remind him of your boundary, you only want to talk about X,Y,Z. And then be prepared for doing this a million, trillion times as your daughter gets to 18 years old because it's unlikely to do any good what-so-ever. Also be prepared it may infuriate him, but the alternative is giving him information to ruminate about, manipulate you with and ammunition to use against you. The more power he has, even the slightest amount, the more he will want. You'll have increasing demands for your time, your thoughts, your energy. He wants you back in the same role you had for him before, even if you now live in different households.

If you are not in counseling currently I would highly recommend it. The ideal situation with an abuser it going complete and total NO CONTACT because there is no way to win-you can't even break even with any abuser. Obviously when you share custody with an abuser you can't go complete and total NO contact so you will need to learn the most effective way to do limited contact, and be able to cope with the inevitable fallout. For me, parenting with an abuser, even one I was divorced from gave him years and years of opportunities to continue his abuse, and I was being continually re-traumatized by the experience, unable to heal. Don't let that happen to you, you deserve to do more than just cope, you deserve to thrive and have a life free from abuse. Therapy can help you deal with what will be, to a lessor degree, continued abuse through your daughter and help you keep your daughter emotionally safe too.

Many great posts here, but just to comment on the one before mine "He's not your partner. He's not the person you had planned a life with. He is your adversary and he's very dangerous right now. A person who has gotten used to controlling you, who can no longer control you will do whatever they can to regain that power."

I agree completely. Abusers objectify their victims. Objects, you see, don't get to decide when to leave, their possessors do. He will not take losing control over you and your daughter lying down, you guys are such convenient sources for him. Please BE CAREFUL! Leaving is a dangerous time. Don't let your guard down.

I agree with what others have said about keeping the communication to emails and the like only and through your attorney. You also can say to him, when he asks about you - "this is none of your concern" and to anything else, if necessary say " I'm not hearing respect, we can talk when you show respect". More importantly, keep relying on all the support you're getting now. Best of luck to you.

I'm so sorry for what you're going through Mari. I am now divorced for 1.5 years from my abuser (separated in house for 1.5 prior to that). I can completely relate to what you are going through. We too have little children and I have to see him every time he comes to pick them up for his visit. He crosses boundaries. All. The. Time.

As livinagabusefree said - a simple what are you up to - is his way of still controlling. And he catches me off guard and I tell him
I get so mad at myself. But I know if I say - none of your business- he'll twist things and say I'm being so mean to him.

I've got over a decade before my youngest is 18. I'm not looking forward to all those years of contact. :((

Good luck to you ... Sending hugs

Thank you all for sharing your advice and experiences. It is very hard for me to accept that this is my life - that he will find ways to torture me for years on end even though I did the courageous and difficult thing to separate from him. I think there is a small chance that he will someday move back to his home state with his family and make excuses for how it's my fault that he can't parent his daughter. It would be a relief if he left. I want her to have a daddy but from what I've learned from all of you, he is literally not capable of being a healthy parent.
I am slowly but surely getting better at setting rock hard boundaries, like keeping 95% of communication to emails. Also I sometimes copy my attorney on the email and that seems to "set him straight" a little. I am in therapy with a skilled trauma therapist and that has been invaluable. I still just feel like he's in my head and in my life all the time. I want him to go away and stop haunting me!

Mari, you are amazing, you are an inspiration, you are doing so great in the face of something monumentally difficult! You got this-he can try to make your life miserable but you are going to take it back and his crap will have less and less of an effect over time and you'll recover more and more and find your strength-that is the beauty of getting counseling-made a world of difference when I started going. Hopefully he will lose interest and move away-that happens sometimes too. Some abusers just hang on, and on, and on...