Here's my take on it. My exH is a narcissist. He was not really "aware" of his manipulation, though at the same time, it was calculated because it kept me under control. But doing that to me and other people is just like breathing for him. He is entitled to the core. Others have no feelings or rights in his mind and that's just the natural order of things.

My exBF on the other hand, I believe was a sociopath. He knew exactly what he was doing. I didn't stay with him long enough for him to start abusing me, per se, but he told lies so naturally. He mirrored my experiences and feelings to manipulate me into thinking that we were made for each other. I have no doubt that his wife and the other women he was involved with were also sucked into his web of lies and also believed that he was a wonderful, sensitive, caring person who loved only them, though he was slipping around from bed to bed. He knew it all. And it was creepy when I figured it out.

I'm still not sure what my husband is aware of. I think that there are many times when he is aware, because he'll say that he's "teaching" me a lesson, or something like that. But then there are other times that I don't think he realizes how controlling/abusive he is..its just part of his personality and how he was raised.

But, regardless of whether he is intentional or not. I've finally realized that it doesn't matter, I don't care, what matters is how he treats me, so I no longer feel bad for him and the childhood that he had.

Very true, Junes. What matters is how they treat us, not whether they truly understand what they are doing or not.

There is no way they can not know we are hurting - have we all not tried to tell them in every way we know? Have they not seen us cry? Seen our pain? And yet they do nothing to ease it or to change their ways. That's enough, for me. It doesn't matter whether they understand or not, whether they do it deliberately or unconsciously. They see our pain, and it doesn't really matter whether they delight in it or simply don't care. Either way it's not good enough.

Junes, I can relate to your "being taught a lesson". It makes me furious when my husband does this. I do think these abusers know what they are doing because they know enough that they do not treat everyone this way. Only their better halves.

Livndadrem..............
what you said made it all clear to me .......its so profound what you said.....

"There is no way they can not know we are hurting - have we all not tried to tell them in every way we know? Have they not seen us cry? Seen our pain? And yet they do nothing to ease it or to change their ways. That's enough, for me. It doesn't matter whether they understand or not, whether they do it deliberately or unconsciously. They see our pain, and it doesn't really matter whether they delight in it or simply don't care. Either way it's not good enough. "

its all there..............
they HAVE seen our pain , they HAVE seen our tears , they have seen it make us very ill indeed , they say they love us , so because they 'love' us they do something right?.........NO ,,,,,,they dont........THATS NOT LOVE......i dont know what it is but its not love.....so they MUST know?...........
thank you livndadrem xxxxxxxxxxxxx

You are more than welcome.

I do know what it is. You are right, it's not love. It's abuse.

And yes, they MUST know. Even if they think they are justified, they know that what they are doing hurts us. If I did something which I thought was right or fair, then found out it seriously hurt someone I loved, I would never do it to them again no matter HOW much I thought it was their issue.

yes i hear you loud and clear......
just a thought now that is running through my head , if youre able to answer this?

i am a grandmother of a beautiful 5 yr old girl , shes my life....lol...
i DO NOT , i repeat.....lol...i do not like being called grandma.......i think its so sort of older than nana !
so i have told ' m ' to call me Nana and shes ok with that.......
the other dayshe accidentally called me grandma and i told her not to call me grandma and to please call me nana.....well obviously for a 5 yr old she found this funny.......lol.....so she carried on as shes going through that difficult " i wont do what you tell me " stage........lol
well i of course hubby starting making a big deal out of it didnt he , laughing constantly at me.......LOUDLY........knowing full well i HATE being laughed at , to me this was a perfect oppurtunity to do his thing......??????
what do you think?

ps.........my daughters were telling me that he was only messing......my gut was shouting otherwise? xx

Abusers don't
tease (mess with).

Abusers abuse.

What she said.

If it hurts you, it hurts.

I have a wicked sense of humour and, very occasionally I have made jokes that have hurt - the second I realise they hurt, I stop and apologise. And it's pretty much never been anyone really close to me because I know their vulnerabilities and so avoid them (the vulnerabilities, not the people lol).

Trust your gut. Always. It's never wrong.

thanks livn.......so basically what he did was downright cruel?

So. . . . .

before I give my opinion on:


so basically what he did was downright cruel?


. . . . would you answer the question:


In your history together with him,
can you point to three other times
when you felt he was downright cruel?


If you can. . . . . then my feeling is
an unqualified yes.

If you can document a pattern together
of him hurting you, a pattern being
three things or more. . . . .

than he's an abuser.

So, I repeat myself:

Abusers don't
tease (mess with).

Abusers abuse.

unfortunatley - yeah....... xxxx

What she said.

Short answer? Yes.

Mine did. He thought it was so cool, to lie to people and manipulate them into thinking something was true that was not. He loved the gas lighting. He loved it all.

I will say though now...after 5 years out, and a zillion court appearances, he can't tell the truth from a lie. He thinks that because he said it, it's true. And he looks like a fool every single time he talks because he is so obviously delusional, people just roll their eyes at him, and know he's making stuff up. Even the judge the last time we were there....was well aware that what he said was not only not true, it couldn't even happen the way he described it.

But yeah, the short answer is, in my book, they know. They ALL know. They may use different methods to hide it but they all know.

Someone commented that they only hurt their better half, but I have to disagree on behalf of my exNH. He was awful to other people, ESPECIALLY when driving, trying to teach everyone to drive perfectly like he did. (Actually, he drives like a bat out of hell and is annoyed by anyone else who has the audacity to use the same road.)

I have seen him drive like a maniac, passing dangerously, flipping people off, then pull into our neighborhood and drive way below the speed limit while nodding and smiling at all the neighbors out walking with their kids. He's very selective. Those people whose good opinion he craves only see him at his charming best. Those people who have no choice but to be with him (wife and kids and hapless anonymous drivers on the road) get the short and crappy end of the stick.