I am so very sorry, I can just imagine how tough it would be for you to live this way.
I do feel, she seems to be used to getting her way after you've said "no" then all she needs to do is argue with you long enough or vicious enough till you change your mind.
It takes no time to say "no" as you did about your niece coming over cause you had plans, but you said there was a 2 hour battle. Why??? It takes 2 to argue.
No is no, it doesn't need an exhausting 2 hour battle to follow.
I think after you say no, you shouldn't argue with her anymore. It does no good and she just escalates.
At the Therapists office she learned she can get out of that by not getting out of the car. She argued with you till you left. She won again.
She knows if she keeps at it long enough she will win.
Somebody saved me from what you are going through when my kids were little. They taught me NEVER say no unless I meant it. Choose your battles wisely and after you say no, do not give in. This is what teaches them to argue with you.
I wonder if possibly the therapist would help you get the ball rolling in the right direction. Could you call and tell him what happened last time and ask if he would agree to help you by going out to your car when you get there, and helping to get her in the office? I would NOT tell her ahead of time or she will have her own plan of action made. If he agrees make sure you stick with the plan of her going in.
It's going to be so hard to try and get her to change now. Maybe even the therapist can give you some helpful suggestions.
I really wish you luck.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

It seems like your daughter is more than likely acting out because she is angry at the abuser but she knows on some level its not safe to take her anger out on him. So she takes her anger out on you, the safe one. Doesn't make it right or acceptable. And its really important to provide her w/consistency, good boundaries and love. It's also important to detach w/love because it will help you to not take what she does personally.

Gem has some very good advice. No is no because you're the parent and you owe her no explanations or arguments.

Years ago, I had serious issues w/my then 4 yr old acting out in very dangerous ways. The child refused to take part in therapy. So, the therapist worked w/me to create CONSISTENCY and BOUNDARIES. She was a godsend. With her help, I created a chart for chores & behavior. I also created a contract that spelled out how the chart would work & that there would be consequences for everything positive & negative. I instructed child to read and sign. All signing meant was it had been read and understood. No agreement necessary because it didn't matter, the chart would be enforced either way.

I listed specific chores that had to be done for the sake of the contributing to the family, specific chores that would earn extra rewards; homework policy; telephone time (didn't have internet back then); specific behavior requirements, etc., even a way to earn her school clothes (she had to take care of the ones she already had, etc.)

Be as specific as possible. Know that they will always figure out a way to get around it. So, each time your child figures out a loophole to the chore chart, you must congratulate her and then you get to close the loophole. Make sure to put that in the contract!!! (and give a copy to your child.)

Each action (or lack thereof) earned the child either a positive or a negative consequence. That's where consistency comes in - enforcing it. :-) Not gonna lie, it was like playing policewoman 24/7. Had no help & a lot of hindrance from ex who was then husband. Didn't matter...my child's well being was my ultimate goal. I believe what I did kept her alive, out of inpatient behavioral health and out of jail.

Also you have to figure out consequences that are age appropriate AND that will have an IMPACT, especially the consequences for negative behavior. i.e. if you take tv away for a week & she doesn't seemed bothered, you need to take something away that WILL, like her phone & internet (must do both at same time or no impact). Doing chores & positive behavior earns privileges like phone & internet or going places. It's just as important to have positive consequences that will entice her to continue w/her positive behavior.

It's also EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to review the chart on a weekly basis & focus on the positive stuff. Dole out the negative consequences saying how sorry you are you have to do this, but remind her that she has control over the consequences just by changing her behavior. Be sure a pay more attention to the positives & reinforce them as often as you can. it's been proven over and over and over that the more we pay attention to the positives, the more the child will want to do positives.

Do all of this will a calm demeanor. Attitude is contagious.

Also, a highly effective 'condition' to consequences that worked quite well w/all my kids is this:

First time negative behavior, you lose xxxxx privilege for one week. Next time, its doubled to two weeks. Next time its doubled again to four weeks. Next time doubled to eight weeks...etc. That's a HUGE deterrent! And I made sure I explained it all the way out to 16 weeks (4 MONTHS) to make sure they got it.


I will be frank here, this isn't easy. It's one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Her behavior may escalate. She will then more than likely focus her anger on you being the mean bitch. And that's like cutting our hearts in half as moms.

My therapist kept drumming into my head "detach with love. The other thing she told me was NEVER EVER GIVE UP ON YOUR CHILD. When you give up on them, they give up on themselves. And of course, never ever give up on yourself. You can do this. Enlist the support of a therapist who specializes in recovery from abuse and who works with kids. Even if your child won't cooperate w/the therapist, YOU work w/him/her.

One of my kids, (now in their 30s) is still mad as hell at me, but just recently saw a side to dad that is causing a shift that enables them to see me in a different light.

I have had to accept the relationship as it is and remind myself that I did the best I could and my child is a self sufficient adult with a job. I also remind myself if I had given up on them, there's no telling where they would be now. And finally, I stopped enabling them by excusing, ignoring &/or getting upset w/their behavior. That is probably the biggest gift I could give them. Their relationship w/their dad is theirs. I have nothing to do with it. I stood in my truth & worked on myself and they see that now. They see who I am and not who the ex wanted them to see.

I hope this helps. Of course check w/your therapist, as different things work for different people.

Big hugs to you!

Thank you both, especially for the excellent advice. Her father has been a huge deterrent to any kind of discipline or plans I've tried in the past. I also find myself hiding any bad behavior on any of the kids part as I disagree completely with his brand of discipline (he screams, calls names, and threatens and comes mighty close to physical assault on them), which makes it twice as hard.

I think the biggest issue is that I am exhausted--literally! That and the fact that I do feel so much guilt for the situation at home--which I do have control over. I have moved these kids so many times to get away from the situation, only to go right back. I am working hard on myself, I know that is where I need to start, but even that is being derailed by the constant conflict in the house--between the two of them, I feel like a wounded warrior. Anyway, thank you so much both of you! Some excellent points and I will give them a try. I will also act the therapist to give me a hand with positive discipline and with figuring out how to help her cope in a constructive (rather than a destructive) way with her anger at me.

I can relate to having two entirely different forms of discipline, especially when the dad is abusive. And I know it's exhausting. I'm so sorry. It's hard enough trying to raise kids today w/o having to deal w/an abusive husband/father.

I used to try and cover up and soften whatever abuse came from dad too. Altho at the time I didn't know it was abusive, I just knew it didn't feel right but didn't know what to do about it.

Yes, it's really hard to work on yourself when you live in a toxic environment. I tried all sorts of therapy while I was still married but it never seemed to help much. Altho now I look back and see if helped me to survive. Now that I'm out, my therapy is going much better. But I also see the damage my not leaving did to my now adult kids.

Is there any way you and the kids can leave or get him to leave? Do you have any family or friends who might give you a place to stay & a little help w/the kids so at least you can get a little rest? Is there a women's shelter near you? They can get you into safe housing.

I hope you are able to get a little relief.

Sending big hugs for support & strength...

I went through a difficult time with my now 18 year old daughter.

When yours insults you try to remember this...QTIP.
Quit Taking It Personally.

It really will get better..not for a while, but it will. Someone I remember when I was at my wits end referred to this as teenage terrorism. So true.

Also, take away what she likes most,,.her phone, going to the movies w her friends..I know it's hard bcz it's then like a punishment for you.

If it gets really bad, where she attacks..or gets a weapon..sometimes an officer can come over n put a scare into him or her.

Wish I had more for you. hang in there,

I haven't read the other replies. You have my sympathies because it's nigh on impossible to have any kind of consistent parenting when you are with an abuser. It's also impossible to find the energy.

The single most important thing that you need to do is to take care of yourself. Unless you do that, you wont have the energy necessary to deal with troubled children. If you can't do it alone, try calling a women's help line. Not for parenting advice but to help you plan how to improve *your* situation.

When you eventually are ready to deal with the trouble your daughter is causing, I find that nothing sets a child back on the straight and narrow quite like taking away everything they think is important - tv, clothes, phone, computer etc. I hear taking away their bedroom door is an awesome motivator :)