Yep, I remember those conversations.
Around and around feeling so frustrated as after all, I knew I was right. Ha Ha ha.
Finally, finally, I was having an issue regarding work. I talked to a school lawyer on school stuff and was complaining about a co-worker and that I knew I was being treated unfairly by. She gave me the wisest piece of advice I have ever got.
"You can be right or get along."
A light bulb went on in my head as I realized how I really wasn't the type that has to be right all the time anyway.
I also took this home. I knew if I argued with my husband I would NEVER be right anyway. I stopped arguing.
There were no more arguments or discussions that lasted for hours. It changed my whole life with anybody who likes to argue.
I refuse. I will state my feelings 1 time and I know if they will listen or not.
I can say this as my husband was abusive, but not near as bad as most of you have gone through. I don't know if it would work for anyone else.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))

OMG, this is such a great analogy!! We ARE (were?) the horses!

I can totally relate. Particularly annoying was the way he would have of actually 'locking me into' the circle:

Me: What do you want for dinner tonight?

Him: Anything. But not spaghetti and meatballs. My biggest mistake was teaching you that. That's all I ever get because that's the only thing you can make.

Me: (grumpy sigh) No it isn't! I -

Him (butting in): Eh, just make a decision!

Me(infuriated): Well, I was trying to, but you wouldn't answer a simple question without getting at me.

Him: You are really rude to me sometimes! You should be nicer to me!

Me: No I'm not, at all!

Him: Eh, just concentrate on what we are eating!

Me: I would, if you didn't keep distracting me!

...and you get the picture :/

I would find myself locked into a circle NOT of my own making, while he got to blame me for having anger I did not want to feel, and keep me off the subject I DID want to talk about.

Training? You bet! HARD training!

Thanks for this xx

When you get into a circular conversation, don't argue back, just say you are tired of the conversation, and leave and come back a few hours later. No point in exhausting yourself in the circle.

Kevin, I really wish I had done that. In hindsight it would have saved a lot of energy. Although, he was so good at humiliating me when I gave in that it often felt like I had to fight, to prove even to myself that my spirit was not completely broken... good advice though.

@Rockin: That sounds like a conversation I have been in MANY times.

Her, on our way back from the store: "I'm hungry, what do you want to do?"

me: "I was thinking of cooking xyz when we got home."

her: "That will take too long, and I am hungry now."

me: "Okay, do you want to stop somewhere?"

her: "Sure. What do you want?"

me: "I don't care, I'm fine with anything. You are the one hungry, so if we pass some place that looks good, let me know."

her: "I don't care, you decide."

then we get almost all the way home -

her "I thought you were going to stop somewhere?"

me "you didn't say anything, so I was just going to stop at this Mexican food place."

her "But I didn't want that..."

totally aggravating. And even more aggravating that she has not once in 9 months taken the initiative about food. I'm responsible for the decision 100% of the time. And tonight will be no different.

I did try not arguing... And it worked for a while. Then I wound up in conversations much like yours, Rockin'...

I could say that the sky was blue, and he would find some way to sneak a snarky little comment or put-down into the reply.

One time, I was at the grocery store to buy some tampons. There were these two really adorable teenagers looking at contraceptive options just down the aisle from where I was standing. They were obviously in love, and thinking about being intimate for the first time together. The conversation they were having was so funny, partially because of how painfully awkward it was, and also because they were trying to be quiet (which they were not doing very successfully).

Later that night, I went to see my ex and relayed the conversation to him. I was cracking up, while he just sat there staring at me:

Me (still smiling): What? It isn't the funny? I guess you had to be there.

Him: No, it isn't. What were you doing looking at condoms?

Me: Are you serious? I told you, I buying tampons!

Him: How were you so close to them that you could hear what they were saying?


Me: They weren't very quiet.

Him: Seriously, Free? You expect me to believe that?

Me (still thinking he can't be serious): Um, here are the tampons.

Him: I see that! What I want to know is where are the condoms?

Me: At the store. I told you the kids were looking at them!

Him: Let me see the receipt.... Fine, I see you didn't buy any this time. What were they, out of your favorite brand?

Me (very hurt and getting angry): I was just telling you a story... And you want to accuse me of cheating on you?

Him: I am sorry, that was mean of me. Let's have dinner.


And I was supposed to go on like nothing happened! Which I did... But in the end, it left me feel broken down and betrayed... The one person who is supposed to love me the most, I couldn't even share a little story with...

And I ended up feeling bad for buying tampons!!!

It was crazy-making!!!

Kevin,

I know that feeling all too well!

Wow me too Kevin. uggggh

I've probably mentioned this so many times but here goes again!

He would start the same arguments with me ALL the time, the theme would be the same, I would always get upset and anxious (probably the reason why he did it after all, given the 10th time we had these exact same conversation he would have worked out they were distressing for me but chose to do it anyway)

One that sticks out would be the dog one. I'm allergic to all animals.

Him: (hed say laughin) when we get this house and live together I'm gonna get a really big dog to scare your family away (he never even met my family and already they weren't allowed down to visit me in our imaginary house)

Me: we are not having a dog, I can't have a dog I'd be ill, I've told u before I'm allergic!

Him: you know I don't like people telling me what I can and can't do, I've always had dogs!

Me: I'm not telling you what you can and can't do I'm saying that I can't because I'm allergic, I'm not dictating to you

Him: if someone tells me I can't do anything I go out and do it more. I will just buy a dog and bring it home

Me: well if you do that I can't live with a dog because I would be really ill so I'd have to move out, it would either be me leave or the dog leaves because I can't live feeling so ill all the time, I can't breath around animals

Him: I would never get rid of a dog, it's not fair to that animal to swap their homes and families, you can move out! Besides I don't even think your allergic I just think it's all inside your head!!!

Me: I am allergic, why would I make it up?

Him: for attention

Me: it's awful living with allergies, I love animals and I'd have loads if pets if I wasn't allergic, sometimes I feel like I've been robbed of an experience being allergic, I wish I didn't have it! You're really lucky not to have it

Him: it's all in your head!!! (Sarcastically said now) I will get a dog and you just have to not think about it all, then you won't have a reaction because your not really allergic

Me: if I had a nut allergy would you expect me to eat nuts? It's a serious thing and you get really poorly. My chest becomes tight and my airways close up!

Him: why should my life be affected because of you? Why should I miss out, it's not fair, your so called aligned have nothing to do with me, why should I miss out in life experiences because of you?

Me: I literally CAN'T have pets, I'm not saying you have to miss out because I say so, I can't help it, I'm confused what do u mean?

Him: (silence but with a smirk on his face)

After silence I get upset because he's not listening and I'm scared he would get a dog

Me: (now crying) please don't get a dog

Him: (looks at me in disgust) KAREN, do u really think I would even do that to you?

Me: but you've been saying for the last hour that you would get a dog

Him: I can't believe you would even think that of me. You think that I would make you ill, well I'm offended, you obviously don't think much of me to think I would do something like that!

Me: (confused) but you've just been saying you would?!?!

Him: well I thought u knew me but you don't know me very well at all.

He falls out with me, doesn't speak to me, I end up saying...

Me: sorry, it's just that because you said you would I thought you really wanted an dog!

Him: come here (hugging me) of course I won't get a dog don't be silly!!

I can't tell u how many times I had the same conversation about a dog, and there are lots more conversations that were repeated over and over (always in different ways with him ending it as if he got it) and so next time is be like "I thought u understood last time" and I'd explain my case again because last time it clicked for him, little did I know, even the click was fake, it just lured me into thinking if I just explained to him again, he'd understand!

Sorry he would end the conversation saying

"I won't get a dog, don't be silly, I know you're allergic, I'd never do that to you!"

So the next time he'd mention getting a dog I'd be like "but you know I'm allergic we've spoke about this before and he'd say

"I don't like being told what I can and can't do!"

Then I'd say "I'm not saying you can't, you said u understood, I'm saying I can't..."

And so the conversation would begin all over again ending in the same way, oh god it was confusing and just went in cycles, in the end I just gave up and didn't even partake in it! I figured there were only so many times I can speak the truth and he could say he got it and understood and if after all those times he still kept coming to a place where he needed reminding then he was just using it as a power conversation!

My entire life was circular conversations and I never knew what I was suppose to do at the end of each interaction....am I suppose to make supper for a certain time or not? Am I suppose to do anything at all or jut stand in the center of a room waiting to be told what I should do at the moment he desired?
The last big one truly was the day he screemed in my face that he hated me.....and that I make the devil come out of him...Certainly I decided the end of that converstation, but what led up to it....

I wanted to work on us and for each to take some ownership on improving our relationship. I wanted so much to have a good marriage and be a good wife and to feel appreciated, etc ...
I got a glass of water and apparently gulped it, was reading and didn'[t have the tv on , put it on upon his request, couldn't find a suitable channel for him, but yet he was in another room doing something else and did not want to be bothered by me, I was reading, but apparently was not suppose to be, he got frustrated so we had to go to bed, I was trying to sleep, but he was restless....I suggested method to help him be less restless....KABAM!!!!!! Now he wanted to tear me apart because I had asked too many times to work on us and how dare I ask him to do that....KABAM KABAM KABAM! He was out of bed and going to another room to sleep because (in my eyes) I showed caring towards his restlessness but had caused him heartache all week /month/ etc by asking him to care about me.
So much happened
THE LAST CIRCLE:
I asked why he did not want to work on us and show we he cared. He told me he didn't marry me for love. I asked why he did marry me. His response, not for love, We went back and forth at least 4 x. And I kept asking in different ways well, tell me why you married me so I understand. His response again, "It had nothing to do with love." I just looked at him and begged, "but why....please tell me why/" He told me, "I told you , you just never listen" (I swear to God I did not hear anything that explained why...perhaps I am crazy, deaf, selective hearing, stubborn, stupid, I don't know). I asked him to tell me again why and he got up grabbed me by the shoulders and screamed "I hate you! I hate you! You make the devil come out of me!" Then went to our room (where he kept I thought the gun separate under our bed and the bullets in his sock drawer), but he took the gun case and laied down with it next to him......I asked him why and he would not answer and started his silent treatment by lifting his hand and waving hit to dismiss me repeatedly and I backed into our bedroom where I was afraid for both myself and him all night....
It wasn't until the next day that I was certain the bullets were in there (but I kind of figured although I didn't actively think it---I was afraid all night).

That was my last crazy circular discussion.
And now I wonder why I am so concerned about if I should call him like he has begged me to the last 12 hours....I woke to his request to please call him .....he is not going to work for 2 days...he is devastated....
It is crazy!

All right, I'd like to chime in. Here's one of my favorites:

I walk in the door after work, and pull my son into my lap.

Her: Can you come put the dishes away?

Me: Sure. Let me sit here for a bit, and I'll get right to it.

Her: Never mind, I knew I shouldn't have asked you.

Me: No, I'll do it, I'd just like to sit here with the boy in my lap for a bit.

Her: I said never mind. I'll just cook dinner and put the dishes away. I don't know why I ever ask you to do anything, you always turn me down.

Me: I didn't turn you down, I just said I'd do it in a few minutes.

Her: Sure, now that I've made a big deal of it. Just once, it would be nice if you did something loving and take care of the house without me having to ask for it. It doesn't mean anything if I have to ask for it. The trash can is full, the dishes need to be put away, the laundry needs to be done, dinner needs to be cooked, and I'm tired, too - I took 5 kids to the zoo today! But no, you just sit there - I'll take care of it.

Shifting goalposts, unreasonable and unexpressed expectations, and the accusation that I don't love her aside - the one that bothers me most in retrospect is the impact on my son (or daughter.) Hearing that may make them think that a) Mom and dad are fighting because of them b) the dishes are more important than time with them c) Dad is selfish for wanting to spend time with them d) Dad's tensing up when I sit in his lap e) We need to obey mom in order for her to know that we love her f) Going to the zoo with us makes mom tired and them fight g) Mom does all the work and Dad just wants to sit there h) Dad doesn't love Mom i) I can't ask Dad for anything...

And on, and on, and on.

Wow, I think I've experienced all of these mentioned. My dh is famous for circle arguments. I remember one that lasted 5 hours straight. I even recorded it, but he eventually deleted that. Basically after a big argument, then the terrorizing begins of the replay word for word; then I said, and then you said........he will go on to replay the argument how he saw it, and I must agree. He will not stop until I agree with his version. And yes I did learn that either be right or be at peace type thing, but sometimes what you are being asked to admit to, by admitting it, is really damaging over time. Like at the beginning of our relationship it was , yea you're right you're not really jealous like I said, you had a reason to question that.......to now I'm just this super jealous person and it has nothing to do with his blatant disrespect that I may be reacting to. Or in the beginning he did admit he has a yelling problem, but now its we both have a yelling problem. And that comes from me just giving in to whatever he says is so.

Oh Bax - I've been in that one time and time again! But with me, it's not because I am sitting with a kid on my lap, it is because I am doing something else she asked me to do or some other essential function. And then I'll get the passive aggressive "fine, I'll do it myself, then." Or sometimes, I won't even get asked. Instead, I may be sitting and reading or doing whatever, and she will come in and just start complaining about how the way I do something is wrong and I need to do it differently (I don't understand why you do it this way...next time can you just do it this other way?!). And I will say, "Okay, give me a minute and I will get up and fix it," and she will reply, "no, I'm already taking care of it."

I experienced this with my last girlfriend, too, but most especially I witnessed my mom doing this to my dad. Rather than her asking my dad politely to do something to help her, she would just stew and sigh and breathe heavily and finally make a rude comment like "I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY THIS ISN'T WORKING" and then be upset and short at my dad for not helping her before she became frustrated. And hearing that time and time again in my childhood has certainly affected my handling of adult relationships. It makes me want to run and hid from those who are angry and frustrated.

It would be different if you were goofing off, or if it was a long period of time after you had been asked.

And even then, I must be kind to myself and admit that sometimes, I need to goof off. Sometimes the drive home from work is enough to make me want to sit and twitch for 10 minutes or so once I get home.

I'll admit, her standards are stricter than mine. I like to let the trash can get full before taking it out, and i'm not averse to leaving a load of dishes in the dishwasher if there isn't another load that needs to be done RIGHT NOW. But I also don't like leaving dishes around the house, I'll wipe up spills, and pick up tissues from the floor. I'm not a slob. I'm not lazy. That was the one boundary I set 'Don't call me lazy.' And even then as we fought, I would get 'I'm not allowed to call you lazy, because you'll get angry at me.' 'I'm on the verge of calling you lazy, so I'd better stop.' 'I'm not calling you lazy, I'm just pointing out that you never do anything around the house, and never help me...'