Sorry, Schmanek,
I disagree and stand by my statement:
belief in invisible men is inately devisive derisive, divisionist, delusional, and dangerous
All systems of any sort that requires belief in order to work is a devise that someone is using to control someone else, and should not be considered positive in any way.

All human intellectual knowledge requires belief to one degree or another. There is nothing we know with 100% certainty. All scientific truths are approximates. Science admits this and is founded upon this. Founded upon looking at our knowledge of things as approximate and, by using scientific methods, continue to challenge and redefine those approximates to best fit current needs. Einstein proved, with a major degree of certainty, that it is all quite relative. So if you discount belief completely, you are really left with nothing. Any reality you could find or imagine requires belief of some sort to work.

When you define religion as "belief in invisible men" that is your definition only. Certainly, the majority of religious people do not define religion as such and their definition would differ vastly from yours. Even your definition requires you to believe that it represents what is the truth of religion. It is only your opinion and opinions always rest heavy on some sort of belief.

I hope not, my car will finally be paid off by then

#14) mycolors I'm not prejudice........ I just know enough to know that I have only so much control over what happens in my life. Whats meant to be will , or is. Call it death, or end of the world. Both I can not deni, control, or need even to see an invisible man to believe its real. My point is this is one reality man fear so strong they created reasons, times, false truth, tombs for control over something,,,someone they never had a right or deserve to have. I believe in a high intelligence with a plan who spreads gifts, knowledge, beauty, life, and love for us on purpose. Not random chance. We think, believe different mycolors,, but I dont feel I am better than you,smarter, or delusional cause a question has no answere.

Schmanek:
There is a HUGE difference between the supernatural and the suPRE-natural.
The suPRE-natural means we don't yet understand it, yet it exists, like gravity.
Supernatural means that the universe runs on a system of invisible men and superstitions that run outside of and contrary to the laws of science.
The first is where one develops a hypothesis and through a system of trial and error poves or disproves it.
The second is tantamount to writing Santa a letter asking him to pay your electric bill.
There is no comparison.

Kiska:
You're in the minority. Most, well, virtually all belief is based on "I'm better than you because my invisible man can beat up your invisible man, so I follow these absurd rules and your absurd rules ae stupid".
Virtually all religions and wars are based on this.
Yes, belief in superstition and mythology as truth is naive at best and deadly at its climax.
Delusional cause a question has no answer?
More like: delusional because there is no prosess to address the validity of logic, reason, and the scientific prosess.

Let me be clear:
There is no more reason to believe in god than to believe in the tooth fairy, and both come from the ame place:
Two guys got together, made up a cute story, and told it to their kids.
There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise, and lots of evidence to support this:
(research the beginnings of the Hindu, buddhist, Mormon, 7th day adventist and catholic religions)

mycolours, it is funny that you mention the beginnings of the buddhist religion. Most of what the Buddha taught continues to be proven by modern science. Have you really researched and studied about all these religions?

You keep saying invisible men. Please provides some quotes from all these religions which support that.

Also realize that this group is based on tolerance. One facet of tolerance is a respect for other's beliefs. Please keep that in mind.

tell me a religion that isn't based on invisible men
buddhism is based on hinduism, or didn't you know that?
Thousands of gods, with the possible exception of zen buddhism, & even that's hazy on the topic & still relies on the supernatural
I used to be a buddhist
I still call myself an atheist buddhist, because it's a great way of life if you disregard the mysticism.
Leary wrote a great book on that called The Psychedelic Experience, strippig the supernatural from the book of the dead. Again, a great way of life
As far as tolerance goes, I love being harsh, it gets a lot of good, snappy replies, but the truth is deists have little tolerance for each other and none for atheists, so being harsh is a lot of fun, it keeps the conversation lively
As far as keeping an open mind goes:
Please keep in mind that I'm attacking belief systems, not persons or personalities, & I'm doing this for the sake of opennes & the debate of ideas, so let's keep the ball rolling, I'm having a blast & you guys are a gas !!

No. You are attacking people. You say you are attacking only belief systems, but belief systems don't exist except inside the minds of people. So your attacks can't help but have a collateral effect on the people who hold these beliefs. It is fine to state your feelings against anything. But to continue to hammer away at it just won't be tolerated. Period. You just can't separate insulting beliefs systems from insulting people.

You can't fight intolerance with intolerance. To believe it does work is insanity. The same insanity that continues the madness of wars and violence which plague this world. So many people like to simply blame religion as the cause of wars, but that is an error. even the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not really about religion. In that conflict religion is only part of the excuse and not the true cause. Most of the wars and violence in the last few centuries were not really over religion at all. To say they are is simplistic and shows a complete lack of understanding of what is going on.

As far as your claims about Buddhism, I suggest you do more research on the subject. Buddhism was not founded upon hinduism, but was actually a break from the hinduism that was practiced at the time. Along with a break from all the other religions practiced at the time. Yes, some forms of Buddhism do have gods and deities in them but, the core of what the Buddha taught is completely non theistic. And the supernatural in Zen? You are joking, right? You have so many claims that this religion is this or that religion is that. I asked you for specific quotes from these religions to support these claims. You keep saying invisible men. The understanding that god is an invisible man is on the level with a pre-schooler. Certainly, most people who are religious and have developed a deeper understanding don't see it this way. If you take the time to read all of the scriptures it will be quite clear that they never say god is an invisible man. How can you bash something that you have such a shallow understanding of? And again, a continual bashing of anything will just not be tolerated in here.

Wow, how is it posible that we see buddhism so differently? Are you or have you been a buddhist? I was for years. SiddhÄrtha Gautama was a hindu, my friend.
And if your belief systems are too weak to stand up to some. (excuse the pun) devil's advocate attack, then click on "ignore".
Rather than people running away like injured rabbits, I'm trying to get you to use your belief systems to take shots at my statements. Now quit whining & step up to the plate, I'm waiting.
I'm not bashing anyone, I'm cracking wise to get a reaction. Looks like it's working.

On you specific point of invisible men, that's my point exactly, belief in a god is childish, and since gods aren't walking around among us: invisible men.

Here's a list of buddist gods:
http://www.khandro.net/deities.htm

as far as Zen is concerned: yes, it is generally free from dogma, but here in America at least, in practice is is still heavily "spiritual"

The core teaching of buddhism is the four noble truths and the eight-fold path. That is the basic that the Buddha taught. Their is nothing supernatural about that. Nothing about gods or spirits or anything invisible. Very scientific, Very real and practical. If you only follow that teaching, you are a Buddhist. If that is all your practice I think there is no official Buddhist organization that would reject the notion that you are a buddhist. There are other teachings which were added to that, but without any of them and only retaining that simple teaching, your are following the teaching of the Buddha completely. Anything more is not necessary. And the Buddha was neither a hindu nor a buddhist. He was a man who taught the four noble truths and the eight-fold path. The basic teaching of the Buddha is to look and see what is. Buddhism did not start until 200 years after his death. But again, the core teaching of buddhism is to look and see what is. Of course there has been a lot of stuff added to some of the sects but that does not define the whole religion. This is true with most religions, actually.

What has zen being free from dogma have to do with zen being free from the supernatural? You are not making much sense there. To make sense, a correct response would be to give examples of how Zen does teach spirituality. Not just your opinion that zen in America is still heavily "spiritualize". Providing more of your opinions in order to support your opinions is a weak stance at best.

Look, you are trying to draw me into some argument with me defending my beliefs or something like that. And you seem to be doing it for your own pleasure. Please don't waste your time. I don't click ignore, I just click delete and ban. And I will do so if you demonstrate your only purpose in this group is to insult and attack people and just create some conflict for your own entertainment. Which you are starting to do.

Oi ppl ;[ i didn't ask this Q so you ppl can start being assholes to eachother. It was just a simple Q and id appreciate it if no1 would attack anything and just simply talk about what YOU beleive, respect what others have to say and leave it at that.

no... where will it go... what will it become.... how can one form of energy ever change to something else...
I think maybe minds may open up and more will start seeing instead of looking

rainBowsLove,
Sorry I caused your question topic into mixed of Religions ,hurtful challenges,.. Sorry if I upset you and also Shamanek,mikes,mycolours.....................

no no. its fine. the Q was suppose to get u 2 debate, but theres only so far tht u can go with it before it becomes like a war. ur suppose to respect one anothers oppinions is all.

I really hope it will be the end of days, the injustice and terror that happens on this planet everyday has to stop sometime, There is too much negativity in here, animals killing and eating each others, humans beings torturing and abusing each other, that is not the world that i want to live in. I pray for it to end.