I recommend that you and hubby practice on conversations that have no real bearing on the relationship. My wife and I used to discuss things like: "What is your favorite lower-case letter, and why?" "What is your favorite special-character ($%&*#, etc.) and why?" "Do you prefer lace-up shoes, or slip on shoes, and why?" Really, anything other than stuff that matters.

I can't imagine having my wife say that the AP "helped our marriage." That one's out of bounds, if you ask me. I will admit that many aspects of my marriage are "better" than they were before my wife's affair, but that is no thanks to her AP. It is because she and I put in a lot of tears and hard work to put our relationship back together.

Every hear of stonewalling? It looks to me like your H is not ready to own his actions and the damage he has done to you and to your marriage.

Until he does, you are stuck and will stay stuck.

The T needs to be talking to him about what he was getting out of his A and why. Why did he turn to the OW and not to you?

I would so dump this on your H. He is the one who made a choice to cheat so now what? How does he plan on making this right with you?

You should not be going to a young MC. That is just plain silly. Find someone closer to your age. Someone with real life experience.

If my wife had wasted my time/money in marriage counseling blaming me or having zero insight or remorse in terms of owning up to her actions I would have just separated from her.

At this point there is zero chance he will grow because he doesn't think he needs to....it's your fault that he had an affair.

Like Storm said...you are stuck. There is no healing going on aside from his suggestion you just stop talking about it and treat him better so he doesn't have another affair......I'd be pretty infuriated as well if I was in your shoes.

Reconciliation hasn't started yet because he isn't remorseful or doing anything to show he is willing to change.

Excellent advice, as always. I am thinking the same Petrel and Forward. Looks like the marriage is over, or at least at a standstill, until he does actually take responsibility for his choices. It actually helps to know that out loud--now I am free to make choices for me, too. Better times ahead!

Solid advice above. One cannot move forward unless the cheater owns their behavior, takes responsibility, does not blame shift. No finger pointing ever. Call that sh$t out! And the notion of a marriage being better having faced an affair? That is Esther Perel cheater apologist bullsh%t! My life is NOT better and may never be.

When we started MC, we had separate sessions with the “triage” counselors. (We had different ones) mine told me if he ever points a finger to blame you it’s over. It will never work out. His told him on a scale of 1-10 or problems are a 2, he said he responded if you ask my wife I think she’d disagree.
Not once did he ever point a finger at me. We are celebrating our 30th Anniversary on the 24th.
We are truly happy... 4 years later

The book that saved my marriage ,.. how to help your spouse heal from your affair. By Linda MacDonald

An excerpt;

6. Successful Rebuilders accept full responsibility for their actions. This means no excuses or shifting blame onto the faithful spouse. Rebuilders get help (such as counseling, a recovery group, and/ or mentoring) so they can overcome their rationalizations for the affair. They seek to undo all the lies they told themselves for “permission” to be unfaithful.

Update!

Just left very, very tense MC session. I went in today to address the stonewalling head on, as a very clever friend suggested. I started. I told them both that I felt he was sandbagging me, that while I accept what I did/didn’t do for our marriage he had responsibility too. He tried to deflect and use so many of his gaslighting and affair-was-your-fault tactics. I let him say his piece then brought it back to...” I understand you feel this way, but what did you do to contribute to our rift?” 4 times we went though this. THEN he got so so mad!! But I stuck to my guns...”I feel this way when you say X. I understand you want me to take all the responsibility for X, but I will no longer. I want to know what you did to contribute. to making our marriage vulnerable to an affair and taking us away from each other”.

After using all his old tricks and THE TRICKS NOT WORKING ANYMORE, he finally admitted 3 CRITICAL things. In no particular order, the things are:

1. Our marriage was not “off the rails or broken”. Our marriage was really, really good.

2. He got into bed with her because he wanted to return to his prior adult life where women gave him whatever he wanted. He wasn’t miserable and neither was our life together but he wanted sex with her because he wanted it, not because our marriage was “bad” or he was “unloved”. It was all about him—I did NOTHING to make him stray (IKR?!) I am (and I quote here) “the perfect wife, partner, mother and friend”. He owes me happiness and his wonderful life that he “forgot” about when he had his affair. His words were “I can’t believe I ever blamed you for what I did.” WTF?!!!!!!!

3. He gave up and stopped contributing to us not because he was unhappy but bcause it was easier than helping or/and taking things on with me. He left me alone because he wanted to, not because I pushed away.

OMG!!! 5 years of questioning myself. One full year of him blaming and shifting and calling me a piece of shit because I wasn’t into him and she was. A year of doubt and recriminations and so much hurt. And it turns out that we were not “broken” or “miserable” he’s just a selfish ASS!!! How relived I am!! Lol!!

I know there is work from here but for the first time in forever (hun...somebody should make that a song lyric), I feel so free and light and joyful!!! IT WASNT ABOUT ME!!! He failed us, not me failing him!!

He told me after our session that he was never unhappy with me (see above) and that he should never have left everything to me. He said it was just “easier” to blame me than to accept his part of his decisions. OMG!!!

Exhale. Exhale.

I am so unburdened. Thank you Storm and Cole for the encouragement to say what needed to be said and to stand my ground about what I deserve. Finally, some peace in my heart.

He certainly is a sad shell of a man. If you do decide to stay with him you will need an endless supply of patience because from where he is starting as a person it will probably take years for him to become halfway decent husband/father.

I pray he gets on the right path and sticks to it.

Congratulations, StupidWife! Thank you for the update. That is all pretty remarkable. And highly atypical. Was the counselor surprised?

@Mr.: Yeah, I think she was shocked. She was nodding her head and smiling. When he tried the "I never said that", she call him on it right away. Then he tried a different tactic ("You're the reason we don't have a more successful business, you took me away from all my options, etc.....") and she interjected that he'd just said that it was our joint decision but now I'm "at fault" and he had to choose which story to keep telling because a likely as not, he was deflecting responsibility to get me to start spinning and ease up on him. I wasn't having it. I told both of them I was terrified about what was going to happen, but even so, I wanted an answer. It was like watching a movie where you know what will happen so you just let it happen. Everything he had tried in the past (shifting, blaming, accusing, justifying, lying, etc.) just didn't work. I was having NONE of it; he either was owning his behavior or I was walking out. Then, after much teeth gnashing, he did. I was floored. Nothing I'd done (or not done) led to his decision to have his affair. I knew it intellectually before but now, I KNOW it in my heart. If there is anything I have learned in the last year it is that I am, in fact, strong and kind and loving and giving and not the biggest piece of garbage ever created. Whatever happens from this point forward, I am grounded in who I am and what I want. Finally. Finally. Finally.

That's good to hear.

I do worry that he really doesn't have much self motivation to change but only under the threat of divorce does he move an inch and then stop.

You need to decide if you have the patience for that.

the affair is a symptom of a failing marriage due to a person ---(the one having the affair) being a self centered, deceitful, fuck

your husband will always be self-centered
it seems he will always want to be a deceitful fuck
stay with him and be lied to...until one of you dies
or
move on down the road

@forward: Thank you for your thought. I know that it is one step forward but now, unlike before, my heart isn't undermining my brain. The revelation was not about him--this insight is into ME. I knew something was wrong for years before his full disclosure. His acceptance of what belongs to him translates to me that their affair was about them (completely) and who I am did not matter. I could have been Beyonce and Jackie Kennedy and Scarlet Johansen all rolled into one and he would still have fucked her. The difference is that HE had to admit his culpability for the marriage, and his disconnect, not just the affair. His admission to me is his acknowledgement that he was responsible for his decisions regardless of his affair-the affair was the symptom not the cause of what was going on with HIM. I could not and cannot take on what he was selling because it was nothing about me, personally. That is, for me, all the difference.

@Refub: He is self-centered and deceitful. I do l not dispute that. If he chooses to not move forward and embrace his responsibility in his life, that is his choice. Now, in contrast to my choices before, I feel released to move forward in my own life, too. Our kids will be just fine. I will make more money. What I was lacking (yes, I was lacking) was the courage to confront him about HIS responsibility and HIS unwillingness to engage with me. I know now that I had a wonderful marriage where we were happy. I also know that despite the happiness, he wanted Big Boobs for sex and adoration. Does that translate into the best guy ever? HA! Hardly. But what it does translate was that I (ME!!!) was engaged, loving, dedicated and caring; I made our lives and the lives of our family better even when he was fucking that woman. I needed to know that (in my heart, not my brain and not in an angry "AHA!!" kind of way) that my perception of who I was and am was not untrue. He is not my project, I am. That is why I pushed this issue at this time. I am strong enough in who I am and what I can accomplish that I forgive him that he is still weak. That ain't got nothing about me. My road is long and wide with many options, including staying with him. But be weak as fuck again? Not on your (or his) life.

Good, you have yourself figured out and what it is that you can really control ... your own actions and feelings

the marriage? for you it seems that it matters how much he will grow/change and what he can't/won't that you'll accept

my perspective... be honest with yourself about what you will accept that he can't/won't change and be real when you are measuring

your kids will be ok because one of the parents, YOU, is a genuine person, kids survive & thrive when at least one parent is such