As for the porn thing? I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who watch porn and never cheated. I'm sure there are a lot of people who experimented and did not cheat. Once boundaries are set, no matter how loose they are, some people will not cross that line and others will regardless of the situation. You were in the same situation as her. Did you cheat? Did you cross that line?

Some people will use any excuse to cheat and some will do it without an excuse. Some will not do it no matter what the situation. Its all about the person.

There is a leap of faith for both parties if a marriage is to recover well after an affair. The BS has to believe that the CS is going to be honest, transparent, and faithful moving forward, and the CS has to believe that the BS is eventually going to forgive and not keep them in a state of punishment for eternity. If either of you can't do it, and it sounds like you cannot, maybe you should let go of this marriage. And if you do want the marriage, I hope therapy can help you forgive and forge some level of emotional intimacy.

Yes, actually movingon2016, he did. Not sure if you've ever been in the lifestyle....but yeah, leading your wife to strip clubs and enjoying/supporting her getting/giving oral from other women (but stopping once she expressed an interest in mfm) can be construed as crossing the line to some.......no wonder she stated she felt bad about herself.

I feel sorry for those of us that can be so narrow minded to put infidelity in a one size fits all pot.

I'm sorry in rereading this, I see you responded to Lenoire that you were a CS in your first marriage.
Seriously?
Are you even for real that you are writing all this?

I feel so sorry for your wife you are putting her through this abuse. You of all people (as a former CS) should know the despair and conflict within herself she must feel.

I hope she finds strength to leave you and I hope her and her children find a man/father figure that teaches forgiveness and love.

She cheated. She's remorseful. She's working to salvage your marraige. That's a good thing but sometimes it's not enough. The damage is done. It can eat away at the core of who you are. If you find it too hard to rebuild, it's best to move on so you will both have a chance to find what it is that you both need now. No one deserves to live in emotional limbo no matter who hurt who first. Cheating destroys a part of us that we loved and treasured and it is really hard to recover from that loss. Living with apathy will deepen the loss. You wonder if your love will be restored- it can if you choose to work hard at it daily - fake it till u make it. I know you resist pushing through the pain to happiness because you never had to before. But this is a fight for your marriage and your family. You both have to agree to work hard to overcome the roadblocks you will face together on this journey forward. She hurt you with her affair but before you knew about the A , you wanted to save your marriage. That means you love her and chose her. You don't feel it right now because that's how the heart protects itself. There's no switch to get back to love and trust , it is painful tedious work. Why don't you give it all you can and see how it goes. Fight with everything you have because your children deserve that. If in the end nothing changes then you gave it your all. But don't stay and settle for less than what makes you happy. I wish you the strength to rebuild a marraige that bring joy. It's an opportunity to get exactly what you want - a mutual , safe, and open relationship. ((HUGS))

I know you cringe at the thought of busting your hump to fix what she broke. It fills you with resentment that you now have the tremendous burden to repair what she turned her back on. Why should you consider working on a marriage that she did not value enough to refrain from cheating. Why now that she went too far you should work with her to pick up the pieces. I get it. The CS and BS are on different timelines. They are remorseful and filled with trepidation for what the future holds for the relationship now that it has been changed forever. CS want us to know how truly sorry they are for their terrible mistake and don't want to be punished for it forever- they want to get on with the business of healing. Not so fast - we have to recover ourselves first and that takes time. We will forever carry the knowledge of their mistake. We will be punished forever by that knowledge no matter how well we rebuild. However forgiveness is for you not her. It sets you free to enjoy a loving relationship - if not with her then with someone else. So release yourself from this cocoon you've wrapped around yourself and let go of the resentment. Resentment is the poison you drink waiting for someone else to die. Dont view forgiveness as a reward for her poor choices see it as a gift to yourself. You will not be happy until do. You deserve to be happy.

I wish you all accountability, healing, happiness and peace.

None of this is easy. We're human; we screw up. Some get caught, some don't. Some heal, some don't. But I truly believe that the healing process for your marriage will start with your acceptance/forgiveness. If you find yourself unwilling to do either of those, make no mistake it WILL wear her down to ask YOU for a D. Nobody needs to be constantly kicked when they're down.

I wish your family peace and love.

shoretimenow , thank you for your response. I have not denied my role in all of this. I think one of the reasons that I am having such a hard time forgiving her is because of my own guilt. I regret that lifestyle. I feel terrible about myself. I can't love myself right now and I am not happy with myself. If I can't forgive myself how can I forgive her?

Trust me when I tell you that her and I have had this same exact conversation. I swear that for a minute there I thought it could have been her posting on here.

She even brings up my A with my first wife just as you did. But, if I could explain for a moment, that is one of the reason I am also having a hard time feeling like her love and affection is not genuine. I was 20 years old when I married the first time. I got my girlfriend pregnant and I tried to do the stand up thing and I married her. It was a mistake. It was a horrible marriage and I realized that I didn't love her. Instead of being man enough to leave, I cheated. I was never caught and eventually I was able to muster the courage to leave. The cheating was wrong and there was no excuse for it. I know that now and I knew that when I remarried years later.

Because I know how I felt, and that I didn't love my ex-wife, I have a hard time believing that someone in love could cheat on the one they love. She tells me that women are different and that they cheat because of low self esteem (which , like you she says I caused) and insecurities. Yes, someone else was telling her how pretty she was and all I could care about was our next adventure.

However, to movingon2016's point, there were boundaries set. One of the first things our therapist told us was that there were boundaries set whether she liked it or not. Which she didn't. She didn't like him saying that one bit. I never forced her into that lifestyle. As a matter of fact I went along with it (like an idiot) and then, after a while I got really carried away with it. She asked to watch the porn. She asked to go to a strip club. She told me that she was curious of women. She could have backed out at anytime. There was no gun to her head. She had plenty of options but instead she chose the easiest route. The route that made her feel good about herself. I have also stressed the point that I didn't cheat and I was in the same lifestyle, however, to be honest, her point that I didn't have to because she was going along with the other women kills my arguement.

I have no problem with your opinion and your point of view. There is much merit to everything you have said. The one exception being the father figure part. I teach me kids love and forgiveness more than my wife does. I am no ALFA male. I always find the good in people and I have a ton of patience. Most of the time to a fault.

However, I can't help how I feel. The betrayal regardless of the circumstances hurt me. We had a secret lifestyle together, but then she had a secret lifestyle behind my back. Everything I did, I did up front and with her. We always planned things out. Never a spur of the moment decision.

I know that I loved her very much. That I did respect her very much. I don't know what happened along the way.

A long time ago I had a co-worker come on to me alone after hours in the office. As physically tempting as it was I told her that I wouldn't be a cheater. I knew that I wanted to be a good husband this time around. I thought I was. The whole lifestyle thing derailed us. Both of us are at fault in that.

Also, I'm no saint and I don't judge people for the most part. As a matter of fact she argues with me that I can forgive and I have forgiven just about anyone worth forgiving but that I can't forgive her. She's right, but I have also never had to forgive something so personal and so hurtful.

Again, thanks for your input. You are correct in most of what you said. But, I still can't help how I feel. I hope that I can forgive and move on. I wish for nothing more than to have my marriage back. Right now however, I can't let this go or get it behind me.

Without justifying it by any means, some people absolutely cheat on people they love. The affair has more to do with what is going on emotionally inside the CS than it does with the marriage. In Esther Perel's TED Talk, she mentions that even people in happy marriages and open marriages sometimes cheat.

Thank you all again for your input. From the kind words, to the encouraging words, and even to the look in the mirror words. This place really helps. I'm glad in found a few months back. Stillstuck, thank you for your perspective. "Dont view forgiveness as a reward for her poor choices see it as a gift to yourself. " I'm going to really give this some thought. I haven't really viewed it like that up to this point. I'm really going to reflect on that thought. Feel free to continue to give input. Thanks again. I wish you all love, peace, and happiness in your lives and lots of strength for whatever the situation is that led you to this place.

You know Emasculated, there are very few posts on this board that have touched on swinging and like YOUR affair/cheating episode/whatever you want to call it, was different, so is hers.

I actually agree you should let her go and I hope she finds peace and someone that values her.
I hear you saying you and your Christian counselor stating, "but we had boundaries" (and exactly how much experience has your Christian counselor dealt with swinging). I was in a situation very, very similar to this.
This is not a 'she cheated on me' one size fits all situation and you know that.
She trusted you enough to express a fantasy and you went with it. You set boundaries. In her good Christian upbringing I am certain your wife had no idea what she was in for.
She wanted to explore but she wanted to please you.
Boundaries set up without full awareness of all that it entails by the other party is nothing but setting her up to fail. You threw her in a world that was completely foreign and expected her to conform to your expectations. You had your cake, you made her watch and you encouraged it.

When she expressed discomfort or moral conflict (those nuns my friend really ring in the promiscuous girls go to hell theory) and instead of listening you said, "its ok if its between us". She trusted you, she relied on you to make her feel safe and you betrayed that trust. She was watching her husband become titillated at the sights, the search where in the world of swinging a woman is judged on her performance and her body. Emotionless variety sex is the goal and she was told when she pushed the envelope further to explore, "no, only I experience the 3somes".
The very first thing swingers want is a picture. It doesn't matter if you just found the cure for cancer, if you don't meet their standards, you are tossed aside. Like it or not, that does do a lot to a womans self esteem. Alot. In a world where we tell our daughters to become educated and independent, the message in the swinging world is commonly: "what are you into........"
And if you have dabbled in swinging YOU KNOW that many, many marriages do not withstand swinging. It is hardly something you 'just try'.

She tried to bring you back to the Church, it sounds as both of you once had a strong faith, she began to rely on God to fix this and you again tossed that aside. Thank God, God forgives, huh? I hope she finds her faith again and to continues to make faith important to her and her children. I have a hard time with that too after all I did, but I think especially in this world now, we all need that, no?.

She did 'cheat' (of course technically my friend, you have been cheater and then.....wait! you can then experience variety in front of her-so its not cheating) with a man that was a serial cheater. I'm sure he played the game well and knew all the right things to say. I'm sure she more than embarrassed by that behavior too.

I agree that if you can't beyond this and you can't move toward forgiveness, than you should let her go so she can find ONE good man that values her and she can feel safe with and doesn't feel its his role to keep her in a constant state of purgatory. Please do it quick, so she can heal too.

PS. Yes, you can love someone and cheat. I love my husband very much. For me, my cheating was an accumulation, a perfect storm surrounding my issues. Hmmm.....kinda like her......glad I'm married to him!

shoretimenow, I get that this has struck a nerve with you because apparently you have gone through something similar. I understand all my faults in the situation. I am not denying any of that. However, she is not blameless. Whether she understood the boundaries or not is sort of irrelevant. The fact that she new she was doing something wrong but did it anyway is where she went wrong. The fact that she had to hide this and be deceitful about it means that she at the very least understood that I had boundaries. It's scary how much you sound like her. She used the same "perfect storm" phrase when describing everything that was going on in her mind.

By the way, the therapist that we used was not a Christian counselor. We did meet with a Christian counselor one time but I preferred a secular counselor. I wanted to deal with the situation and not be able to hide behind God for what we did. Also, she is not a Catholic. No nuns.

Anyway, I'm glad that things have worked out for you and your husband. I'm sure he is a bigger person than I am. No sarcasm either. As I've already stated, I'm just as unhappy with the man in the mirror as I am with her behavior. Hopefully, with time, I will be able to accept the situation. Hopefully we can make our marriage what it once was. But, for now it's the old cliche' , I'm just taking it one day at a time.

I'm sorry shoretimenow, I must have read his post wrong. I thought she initiated the swinging and he went along with it until it hit his boundaries which was mfm? My view of his "cheating" in his second marriage is not the same as yours if she was ok with all the swinging. She did not consider it cheating and was ok with it and I just went with that. She kept the "affair" from him and I consider that cheating. She obviously did too since she had to hide it. She tried going back to the church after her affair was it? Whatever it was or how they consider it, my point was just that he has no control over her actions, some people cheat and some people don't. He can't blame himself because he went along with the porn and the swinging. At this point putting blame does not heal. Just do what you can emasculated and do what you need to do for yourself and your family.

You are right, I did come on strong yesterday.

I agree that her choices were her choices, but I also think the minute she said to you, "I'm having a problem with this morally" was the minute that the situation should have stopped and by continuing with it, you were negating her feelings and that further leads to a negative impact. She trusted you with those feelings and to keep her safe. By saying that, Moving, she was not ok with the situation. I'm not sure what your experience is with swinging but its a whole different world and a known fact that many marriages do not survive it.

But what upset me was that what you are doing now, over a year past dday is emotionally abusing her. I know how she feels, I know that she probably does negative self talk every single day, I know how much she regrets it, I know the inner turmoil and hate she feels for herself, and by you sleeping next to her continually admonishing, playing mind games like "I don't want to have sex with you, why aren't you initiating sex and I'm pissed you don't" her is only destroying her psyche more. (Frankly, sex is probably the last thing she wants from you) Please don't do that to another human being, especially the mother of your children......if you can't handle it, if you don't feel you can move beyond this- fine, but let her go- just like your first wife did with you when you cheated.

Emasculated. We're all brought to this place
by different circumstances but the roller coaster of emotions that ensues after dday are typical. The triggers are gutting. The road to recovery long. While our stories differ, more often than not BSs struggle with rebuilding and showing empathy. It really does take time. Be patient with the process and don't become frustrated when it seems as if nothing is changing. This is when you dig deep and commit to making tomorrow better than today. When it isn't, don't throw in the towel. You love this woman and while neither of you feel cherished right now , recovery and rebuilding is still possible. What I do know is that you have to set small goals for yourself each day, you can't be passive in this process. When the roller coaster was spinning out of control, I was passive and I let whatever stage of grief that I was experiencing wash over me unabated. Frankly I didn't have the emotional capacity to do anything else. Now I'm glad I did because I never stopped feeling. When you block the pain, you also block the healing. It's like running with a shin splint- running through the pain by blocking it out eventually leads to greater damage. Get what I'm saying? Blocking the initial pain is self preservation but one has to face it sooner rather than later so it doesn't fester and implode. Try setting up
times to talk about how you feel and the small goals you are setting to improve your relationship. Talk to her, listen to her, hear her so she can hear you too. Everyone's timeline is different but if you stay you owe it to yourself to make the effort to be happy again. It's hard to release this sense of loss but what if you could build something so much more fulfilling. At first you have to do it for you and after awhile it won't piss you off that she is benefitting too, instead it will bring you joy. Thank you for sharing your story, it helped me think of my process and my progress. It has helped me reaffirm my decision to stay and not settle.