Oh no, Sheen, there is damage. Just not as much damage to the BS's self-esteem if it is not heavily tied to the CS's esteem/respect of the BS. But there is still damage, and damage in other ways as you mentioned.

Cole: I can see where a BS that has invested a bit too much trust into a relationship bears more damage when betrayed. For instance, if the BS has set aside their career in order to stay home and care for children, then they are faced with complete destruction of their lifestyle and finances right along with the emotional impacts. They are faced with loss of the imagined relationship, loss of their routine, thrust into getting up to speed in the financial world, and much, much more. So, in that way, I think there are contributory factors to additional distress.

I wasn't really in that situation fully. I had worked along the way, even though I didn't take it as seriously as survival work. I do think that having combined incomes, combined home ownership, and the like was a huge detriment when I was confronted with the fodder of relationship failure. I can remember thinking that I had made grave errors along the way. We lived where he wanted to live to support his career. There were far better places to live as far as mine was concerned.

So self-esteem, though it can be problematic is far less destructive than the wake of trust gone astray. I remember being quite irrate that I had invested in the relationship too much. I hadn't set things aside for "in case" it fails. I meant my vows, and I believed that he meant his. So, most everything I did was approached from the perspective of "we" not "me." That perspective is very different from protecting ones self personally from catastrophe.

He had to his credit many, many years of continuous work with one employer. I would likely have to move to obtain adequate financial stability. Had I been even entertaining the idea that we would not remain a family, I would not have allowed that. In fact, I wouldn't have allowed many things that I did allow.

I offered trust. I offered up my separate life to a tandem life. I married him. I took the vows and I meant them. I didn't foresee that I should have kept some of my things just for myself alone. I never considered it that way. I didn't consider that I gave up my body to bearing a child. I would remain forever responsible for the care of that child.

so, self-esteem, such a small part of a huge set of detriments.

"so, self-esteem, such a small part of a huge set of detriments."

That may be true for you, and to a large degree for me. But other BSs have a harder time with this. For instance:

Many men are made to feel there is something wrong with them that they couldn't keep a woman satisfied enough not to stray. Many people think if someone has an affair, it's because the other spouse wasn't doing their job. I had one personal friend, who hasn't been through this before herself, respond to my blog post announcing our book that I made it one sided by not thanking Gabi for sticking with me all the years before the A, despite I thanked her for two other things. That's the mindset out there.

So when someone who thinks that way discovers their spouse has cheated on them, their immediate response or feeling is, "There's something wrong with me. I failed to keep him/her satisfied." Add to that any blameshifting by the CS, and you have the recipe for calling for an ambulance to take the BS to the self-esteem ICU.

Many people also derive their self-esteem from what people think of them. A spouse tends to be at the top of the list. So when this spouse that once had you on a pedestal now treats you like yesterday's trash, it does a number on your self-esteem.

The 180 is about establishing one's self-esteem apart from one's spouse. While that isn't the only damage in an affair, maybe not the most hurtful, it is the lynch pen to becoming emotionally stable and able to heal with or without the CS. For those who the affair did a number on their self-esteem, this is important to rebuild. It enables them to emotionally recover and move on.

True Cole. I'm not saying that it isn't an esteem blow, I'm pretty sure it always is to some extent. I just think that more often than not there are many other factors involved. I heard all the fodder of "it's a man thing", "boys will be boys", "women are responsible for not being sexy enough", "guys are more sexual", and on...an on...ad nauseum. I've heard every excuse known to humans I think, and I've yet to find one that excuses this kind of behavior. The CS always has the opportunity to talk...before they do something injurious. They can request counseling. They can seek their spiritual guidance. They can simply ask for a divorce. As far as societal norms and warped perceptions, personallly, I care very little about what other folks think, if it is so obviously nonsensical thinking. I did feel really crappy though. Very embarrassed that I didn't see it. I think I was more angry with me than anybody. And yet, that's silly, because ya can't know till ya know.

Cole: Ya know, it's been a long time since I confronted this issue. A lot of things, thoughts and feelings have changed and settled for me. So, I don't quite think of it as I once did. I do have my notes though, and they indicate some feelings like that. That is true too partially because my H was termed a sexual addict. So, that's a bit different to deal with than someone who confronts a partner who tends to infatuation. Though, sexual addiction is somewhat like that too, but no where in sexual addiction is there a feeling of loving the object of infatuation. It is entirely sexual in nature. So, there are some major differences to deal with.

One of the things that really bugged me a lot was the lies. I was confronted with many years of lies. How on Earth could I believe anything he said? So, I was in such a state of shock that I often looked at him and didn't even recognize who he might be. He was totally foreign to me in many ways. A person that I had lived with most intimately for around 25 years at that time, and yet, I had no idea who this person was. That was realllllly scarey for me. And, that happened off and on for a long, long time. So, the shock was the worst for me. I didn't have much difficulty ignoring him either. I didn't have much desire to go out of my way to do anything at all for him. So, in that way, I did around a 360. I couldn't stand the sight of him for some time.

Sheen, I agree that there are a host of other factors. I'm not saying a hit to one's self-esteem is the biggest pain or the only issue to address. Only that for *many*, but certainly not all, it takes a big enough hit that if it isn't addressed, prevents healing of the other issues, and will tend to sabotage any healing.

An example: When me and my wife, Gabrielle, sat down to discuss the affairs, she had some valid beefs with me and our marriage. She could have said, with some truth to it, that because I ignored her, she was lonely, and she had given up on getting me to pay attention to her and went and found it elsewhere. *If* she had done that and *if* my self-esteem was damaged by the affair as many are, I may have believed her and thought I caused her to have an affair. I might feel guilty over it. Add to that the hit on my manhood, etc., and both of us could have gone down the road that leads to a terrible marriage and likely ending in divorce.

Thankfully she didn't do that, and I, while feeling the pain and the sting from it all, didn't attribute it as a lack in me, but that something had gone horribly wrong with her. Consequently, my focus was what do we need to do to fix her, both in what she needed to do, but also in what I needed to do to give her the best chance to do that. I naturally set boundaries, expectations, and she cooperated for the most part.

That's just one way this plays out. If someone has low self-esteem going into this, or their esteem is so tied to the perception of their spouse's love that finding out they were willing to cheat on them makes them feel like trash, until that low self-esteem is dealt with, it will prevent any kind of healing from taking place. That is why it is so important to deal with. If you, like me, didn't need to shore that up, we sort of naturally did a form of the 180 appropriate for our situations, because our self-esteem was still intact.

But I also need to address this: " The CS always has the opportunity to talk...before they do something injurious. They can request counseling. They can seek their spiritual guidance. They can simply ask for a divorce."

I get what you are saying and in principle is true. None of those reasons are much more than excuses and justifications for the CS. That said, I think it is a little more nuanced that you stated it.

Many times, problems in the marriage are not so easily identified by either spouse. It is possible, as in my wife's case for instance, that her feelings of loneliness an lack of interaction with me subconsciously made her more susceptible to the temptation once opportunity arose and kicked off a dopamine response in her, sending her into foggy land. She didn't consciously think to herself, "Cole's never going to give me what I need, I'll need to look elsewhere." She never intended to cheat. By the time she realized she was, she was way in over her head. If she had said to herself, "You know, he isn't spending enough time with me, not giving him enough attention. I'd better fix this, get help, etc. or get a divorce if I'm tempted to cheat," she probably would have sought help. But she was oblivious to the fact this was making a situation like that harder to resist. She thought she'd never cheat on me.

So, yeah, no excuse. Because she was tempted and gave in isn't on me, even though my actions contributed to her vulnerabilities. We both should have seen what was happening and did something about it, but neither of us did.

Those things aren't reasons that "caused" the affair. But they are contributing factors to the temptation to cheat. True, if someone said to themselves, "Well, fine. If he won't give it to me, I'll go find someone who will," they cannot justify an affair because of that instead of either seeking help to heal the marriage, considering it a deal-breaker, of if they love their spouse enough, learn to live with it. Cheating is the wrong choice in response to marital problems. It wont' fix them, only rip it apart and make healing more unlikely.

Cole50 your last reply is spot on in my case. I def feel I needed my to validate my selfesteem. Realizing now how that has resulted in my own spiralling out of control emotions when I attempt to have her tell me what she sees me doing better. It only leads to more conflict. I have just finished the section of Healing Infidelity about the spouse being uncooperative spouse. In employing the 180 distancing I have already noticed her seeing me as more distant. I feel and see her frustration. It is hard not to say much and maintain respectable responses to her. For the past week I do my own thing sharing only when she shares. Slowly opening the window. Although she will not discuss anything I feel that will remotely touch on the subject of where kour lives together stand.

Working on my self!

Gunna, I hope she starts opening some windows back up to you and become cooperative. For some, it is a slow process.

Thanks for reading the book. Reviews appreciated. :)

Thanks for your response Cole. I've been away from the computer out of town for several days. I do understand that some people are willing to allow for the weakness of attraction. In a way, I am too. I know that it's likely that marriage will get boring, especially after a couple of decades plus. I was likely as bored as he was, maybe even more so, given I didn't explore other resources though they were there. I knew that it would be folly for me to bask in some much-needed attention, so I disallowed that kind of contact with anyone. I think that all boiled down to to a base structure, I still believe thata CS is just simply selfish. And, in their selfish desires they think of no one else. I mean really, had he shared his discontent with the marriage, I would have agreed with him. I definitely wasn't getting what I felt marriage should offer. So, his failure to share his antics with me served only one purpose that I can see clearly. His failure assured that I didn't get a choice about the boring wasted years, only he did. I felt like I had wasted about 25 years of my life for no good reason really. That, was far more prevalent in my mind than most anything else. By the time I did find out about his secrets, most all of my younger life was expended, my energy, vitality, and all. So, I resented that a lot, and, in a way, I still do.

I certainly understand that feeling. Fortunately, Gabi's crazytown as Onx calls it was only 7 months out of a 29 year marriage (at that point). And I found out about it which brought the whole thing to a screeching halt. I've often thought how much worse it would have been to discover she'd been keeping some secret from me for years.

Another reason I suggest CSs tell as early as possible. Old secrets like that will rot and smell much worse once in the open than they would fresh. Besides, I don't think I could live in constant fear my deep, dark secret would be discovered. Seven months of deception out of 29+ years was bad enough. 15 out of 29, or something along those lines, would be crippling and likely to end it all.

Cole: So true. Crippling, that's a very good descriptive word. Finding that much "behavior" over a long period of years was quite a blow....or a lot of them. Finding that he was "that" unhappy with me was shocking. Finding that the romance I thought I had, acting like I had it, was embarrassing. Finding that he was such an avid liar even more so. Adjusting to a much lesser status in the marriage than I had believed was tough. Finding that I could have sympathy in some ways and that he had become "family" to me was more challenging than all the rest. Ahhhh, time, it does have its affects.

You speak of a loveless marriage. I think I know what you mean. In my case, I don't think it's a loveless marriage, I do love him like family, but, he crippled my ability to love him in a "romantic" kind of way. I love my brothers too, and my dad. I do sometimes miss that kind of romantic relationship that I never really had...well...I did...he obviously didn't. I suppose that were I much younger, things would go much differently. In fact, I'm sure they would have. I divorced my X for such. I ended a twelve year marriage the day I found out. Done, no possibility ever.

Now, though, I've spent nearly thirty-three years in this relationship...that's a lot of years. So, though I find that I "can't" love him as I once did, I do love him in other ways. I wish I could, but I find I can't even though I tried. I love him enough to give up even the possibility of romance and that special mate kind of love. I think that speaks of a deep love.

Sometimes it's depressing to watch him and his "wish I hadn't done that" attitude. If I could provide what he wants, I likely would, but I can't. I really believe he wishes he hadn't, so I have empathy. Had I not been convinced of that, I would have divorced him anyway. But, all the wishing in the world will never change the fact that he did what he did. His behavior ended my ability to be vulnerable in many ways with him....that "esteem" thing we discussed. Though I don't think I deserved that, I can't feel attractive at all within the relationship with him now. How's a sixty plus woman going to feel in comparison to his desire for a twenty something girl? I think that's the ultimate outcome of cheating, or in his case, psuedo cheating. They take the risk of crippling the mate's ability to ever go there again...with them. And, though I can forgive his error, I can't feel comfortable.