Incest Survivors Support Group
Incest refers to any sexual activity between closely related persons that is illegal or socially taboo. Consensual adult incest is very rare. Incest between adults and prepubescent or adolescent children is a form of child sexual abuse that has been shown to be one of the most extreme forms of childhood trauma. If you or a loved one is a survivor of incest, join the group...
Trigger warning perhaps -
Hello everyone - hope this finds you well!
I have seen a lot of posts lately about whether or not a victim "should" have felt pleasure during the sexual acts that were being performed upon them; posts both in incest and sexual abuse forums. Thus I am cross posting this in both forums to get coverage of it.
One of the largest hurdles that survivors face is that they feel shame, blame and partial responsibility for the abuse because there was a facet of pleasure involved, or at least in many abuse cases - for some of us that was a large facet, for others a small or minor facet.
It really does not matter. Most abuse starts with a "grooming" stage - this is well documented in decades of research concerning childhood sexual abuse. During that "grooming" stage, there are various tricks that abuser's use and the consistency of these practices has always made me feel like there must be a "How to succeed as a Sexual Abuser" handbook out there somewhere.
The initial stage of grooming for abuse rarely starts with outright violence and mayhem - although in some cases this is true, the majority of abuse survivors speak of having been almost "seduced into the abuse". The abusers will try various little tricks - "I have a secret and I will tell you, but you cannot tell anyone" or "let's play a game that is only ours to play" or in my case, my abuser showed me hardcore porn then said something like "This is what adults do - you want to see if your an adult? - but, you can't tell anyone because YOU will get into trouble." This after hinting about it for weeks and "wetting" my curiosity to almost unbearable limits. He was very good - but he had a lot of practice it turns out, with other children around him (and he was only 12 year old when he started to abuse me!)
Back to grooming - once the abuser has the child's confidence and secrecy forged, then they can proceed in any way they want - though most do the progressions slowly into other forms of abuse, it can be almost instantaneous that they move from "friend" / "family" into "threat" / "violator". At those stages fear is the motivator to stay quiet and keep the secret - fear of being blames, worse treatment, loss of the relationship, etc.
And as a child I felt pleasure with the abuse. Sex is pleasurable - regardless of the age. But a child's mind is not formed enough to be able to set limits, determine right from wrong or understand such concepts of boundaries - that is why, regardless whether you eventually started to initiate sexual encounters with the abuser - you are NOT TO BLAME. You were working within the framework of a child's mind - and looking back with adult eyes and perspectives can make you feel shame and such "because you were asking for it" or you see yourself as a "willing participant" - this is just bullshit. Your abuser trained you for this. Had you not been abused, you would not know what to even ask for.....you had no part of the abuse, regardless of your reactions.
Yes, I almost always ejaculated during an abuse episode - once I was old enough to do so. But then, my body was stimulated and if some part of it had not had a pleasure aspect to it, I would have been less likely to allow the abuse to continue, even as a child, even though my first abuser was very threatening after the grooming stage was over.
There were aspects of pain - in the later stages of the abuse, almost all of it was painful, but I was still excited physically, because these things were interrelated in my child's mental framework.
So, if you feel even the slightest bit of shame or blame due to your possibly enjoying a part of the abuse, or perhaps, in time, initiating it, you are STILL NOT TO BLAME. The more knowledgeable abuser started that train rolling and you were the victim - no matter what your response or reaction - you were still the victim here and just following the normal reactions to stimuli.
As I posted earlier - if an adult entices a child to smoke pot or try addictive drugs and the child wants to experience that euphoria again - we don't blame the child, but the one who gave them the drugs to begin with. Why is sex any different?
So, how many here were "seduced into the abuse"? And if you were, do you feel shame at your actions or reactions to what happened to you? I do hope you do not and if you do, I hope you understand that this is just a part of you that still needs focus and work. By taking ANY of the blame for such, you are letting the abuser off the hook - all this was their fault - none was yours.
I wish I knew how many abuser's in therapy have told me that the child was "asking for it" - but the reality is, a child will not ask for that which they do not know exists.
Sorry, this is so long, but this is a huge stumbling block for many survivors - don't let it remain one in your life.
All my best -
Refuse2quit
Hello everyone - hope this finds you well!
I have seen a lot of posts lately about whether or not a victim "should" have felt pleasure during the sexual acts that were being performed upon them; posts both in incest and sexual abuse forums. Thus I am cross posting this in both forums to get coverage of it.
One of the largest hurdles that survivors face is that they feel shame, blame and partial responsibility for the abuse because there was a facet of pleasure involved, or at least in many abuse cases - for some of us that was a large facet, for others a small or minor facet.
It really does not matter. Most abuse starts with a "grooming" stage - this is well documented in decades of research concerning childhood sexual abuse. During that "grooming" stage, there are various tricks that abuser's use and the consistency of these practices has always made me feel like there must be a "How to succeed as a Sexual Abuser" handbook out there somewhere.
The initial stage of grooming for abuse rarely starts with outright violence and mayhem - although in some cases this is true, the majority of abuse survivors speak of having been almost "seduced into the abuse". The abusers will try various little tricks - "I have a secret and I will tell you, but you cannot tell anyone" or "let's play a game that is only ours to play" or in my case, my abuser showed me hardcore porn then said something like "This is what adults do - you want to see if your an adult? - but, you can't tell anyone because YOU will get into trouble." This after hinting about it for weeks and "wetting" my curiosity to almost unbearable limits. He was very good - but he had a lot of practice it turns out, with other children around him (and he was only 12 year old when he started to abuse me!)
Back to grooming - once the abuser has the child's confidence and secrecy forged, then they can proceed in any way they want - though most do the progressions slowly into other forms of abuse, it can be almost instantaneous that they move from "friend" / "family" into "threat" / "violator". At those stages fear is the motivator to stay quiet and keep the secret - fear of being blames, worse treatment, loss of the relationship, etc.
And as a child I felt pleasure with the abuse. Sex is pleasurable - regardless of the age. But a child's mind is not formed enough to be able to set limits, determine right from wrong or understand such concepts of boundaries - that is why, regardless whether you eventually started to initiate sexual encounters with the abuser - you are NOT TO BLAME. You were working within the framework of a child's mind - and looking back with adult eyes and perspectives can make you feel shame and such "because you were asking for it" or you see yourself as a "willing participant" - this is just bullshit. Your abuser trained you for this. Had you not been abused, you would not know what to even ask for.....you had no part of the abuse, regardless of your reactions.
Yes, I almost always ejaculated during an abuse episode - once I was old enough to do so. But then, my body was stimulated and if some part of it had not had a pleasure aspect to it, I would have been less likely to allow the abuse to continue, even as a child, even though my first abuser was very threatening after the grooming stage was over.
There were aspects of pain - in the later stages of the abuse, almost all of it was painful, but I was still excited physically, because these things were interrelated in my child's mental framework.
So, if you feel even the slightest bit of shame or blame due to your possibly enjoying a part of the abuse, or perhaps, in time, initiating it, you are STILL NOT TO BLAME. The more knowledgeable abuser started that train rolling and you were the victim - no matter what your response or reaction - you were still the victim here and just following the normal reactions to stimuli.
As I posted earlier - if an adult entices a child to smoke pot or try addictive drugs and the child wants to experience that euphoria again - we don't blame the child, but the one who gave them the drugs to begin with. Why is sex any different?
So, how many here were "seduced into the abuse"? And if you were, do you feel shame at your actions or reactions to what happened to you? I do hope you do not and if you do, I hope you understand that this is just a part of you that still needs focus and work. By taking ANY of the blame for such, you are letting the abuser off the hook - all this was their fault - none was yours.
I wish I knew how many abuser's in therapy have told me that the child was "asking for it" - but the reality is, a child will not ask for that which they do not know exists.
Sorry, this is so long, but this is a huge stumbling block for many survivors - don't let it remain one in your life.
All my best -
Refuse2quit
This took me a long time to process, and a deep part of me still has difficulty with it.
I am glad that you each seemed to get something from this post - the thought of "being responsible for the abuse" rather than simply acknowledging that you are a victim, nothing more or less, is such a difficult thing for many to understand. I am glad if it helped in any way.
I know, for me, the feeling of blame and guilt over what happened haunted my days and nights for a long time - until I finally understood that no matter what I did at the time - I was a victim. Until then, there was little growth and no relief from the torment of thinking I had somehow brought this on myself.
I do hope everyone has a good weekend - and perhaps this springtime can be your time of renewed hope and promise -
All my best
Refuse2quit
You are more than welcome.
Refuse2quit
Sorry I can't really share as yet.
TFuller - a number of us here were made pregnant as a result of abuse and rape. In my case I had an abortion so I am not tormented with thoughts of where is s/he? how are they? etc. as I know I would be if I was in your shoes. My thoughts are very much with you.
I am glad you felt like sharing what you did....and as for feeling bad about your young adult years, well you said it yourself - you did not know how to stop it. You were taught to be abused - no one taught you how to stop it from happening.
There was a study done years ago, and I cannot find the researcher's name now....I will keep looking. But basically the researchers showed a group of self-admitted abusers who had not started treatment a video tape of a room with several women in it who were talking casually and discussing non-sexual topics. The abusers were then asked who they would chose to "date". The women in the room were either self-identified victims of abuse who had never been through any form of treatment, survivors of abuse who had been through various forms of treatment, or women who had never been abused in their past. The abusers, almost to the individual, all picked the women who had been abused but had not received any form of treatment in the past, as someone they would like to date.
This article proposed that the "victims" were still using body language, verbal intonations and other subtle "cues" that allowed the abusers to recognize that these women were "easy targets".
So, are we sending out signals that we want to be abused - no, not at all. But I do think that when I was younger I put off a real "victim vibes" so to speak. I did not look people in the eye, I stood rather slump shouldered, was anxious and looked "beaten down" I guess. I certainly lacked confidence, that much I can say definitively. And such mental attitudes do show in our outward demeanor.
So, you were trained to be in the victim role - and until you started to realize that and started making changes in yourself and your attitude, I think that abusers do pick up on the "wounded look" that many of us had.
That is my belief anyway......it still is not your fault. even if someone looks totally beaten down and trod upon, anyone who takes advantage of that is another abuser. And unless you knew you were doing it, how would you stop it? If you, or others like me, had no confidence or thought that such roles were ours to play, then until we learn differently, we are not to blame, are we? Not in my opinion - not at all. Taking advantage of someone is just that - you are not to be blamed that you carried the effects of your abuse with you - we all did and/or do to some degree. Guilt over being a victim is a waste of energy, time and health - and it makes recovery so much harder.
I wish you well.....hope that some of this helps.
All my best as always,
Refuse2quit
Sorry....I went off on a tangent there. I do feel shame and there are certain subtle physical sensations that arouse me, as well as shame and humiliate me. They can be something simple like the hair on a man's arm or the smell of his skin. When that hits I am a kid again and there is some component of sexual arousal there.
Can an 8 year old actually be a slut? Not in my view of things - I guess is depends on how you define "slut", but few 8 year olds have the mental capacity to take on that kind of role. To me a "slut" chooses to act as they do - a victim is programmed to act as they do. I am so sorry that others humiliated you - and I agree, there is a differences between shame and humiliation. We can be ashamed of what we do, but humiliation usually involves another person casting aspersions upon us, making us feel "less" that what we are worth or responsible for; humiliation is a "public knowledge" sort of thing in my book, and yes, the man who first abused me humiliated me often - he told his classmates that I was a "queer" and that they had to watch me around them or their siblings as I would try to put the moves on them - that was the furthest thing in my mind - at the time, I certainly had no intention of letting anyone know what was happening or being that forward - this followed me into my adult years, as I have always had difficulty "making the first move" - perhaps still motivated that I would be rejected or ridiculed - humiliated if you will.
Needless to say, when you are in a small midwestern Jr. High in the early 1970's and word gets out that you have had sex with someone of your own gender - well, the humiliation occurred daily and intensely. Funny that some of the guys that ridiculed me the loudest in the hallway were the same ones that later tried to get me to go to bed with them.....odd how that happens?
Anyway - I do hope that you can resolve such issues over time - often carrying things like shame and humiliation around is sort of like being in your own, personal mobile prison.....these emotions do not allow you the freedom to be happy, expressive or yourself.
All my best CBG - hope that you find peace and resolution to these matters.....
Refuse2quit
I am moving along at a snail's pace. I am still learning what I was feeling during the abuse and still working through trust issues with my therapist.
When I read your story and see all that you have been through and see the man you have become in spite of it I am encouraged that someday I will really feel some peace.
As well, females often fail to reach orgasm when they chose to have sex, if they or their partner are ignorant of the facts of female stimulation. In the case of abuse, the perp probably doesn't care.
With males I think nature ensures continuation of the species by accomplishing orgasm under almost any circumstance.
I think in retrospect, if we had known the baggage incest would load on us, we would have screamed and fought and told ....... And if we had a little pleasure, or played out being the aggressor we must accept it's what kid who was dragged into a world they weren't prepared for and didn't deserve would do. We shouldn't punish ourselves because we had healthy bodies or reacted the best we knew. It was normal for the circumstance.
I agree 100% with your reply - I did not address the gender issue, because the there were some members who had questioned whether it was "alright" or "normal" that they had some aspect of pleasure involved and the posts were from both men and women. So I was just responding to anyone that felt and aspect of pleasure while being abused. But you are correct - the reaction to abuse is often gender related and also the female orgasm is much more complex than that of we men - hate to say it, but in that sense men are often somewhat "easy" by comparison - although that is also a generalization that is not fair to men.
Thanks for this clarification, and yes, however we reacted, it was not an issue of responsibility or "blame" - we reacted how we reacted and were it not for the abuse, we wouldn't have to be concerned about such as this.
All my best-
Refuse2quit