I don't want to hear any more about so-called "nice guys", who are actually being overly nice as an alterior motive, to get laid, which is trickery, and is not very nice.

I like the guy's assessment of REAL self. A guy who's forthright, knows what he wants, and takes it when it looks like it's being offered, yet holds back if she flinches or says "no". The forthright guy may get rejected or placed in the "friend zone" just as much as the so-called "nice" guy, but at least the forthright guy has been true, to himself and to her, which, at the end of the day, is what he's stuck with anyway, himself.

As soon as a man allows a woman to usurp his natural male energy, he's reliant on her, a follower, and he's doomed, to be forever placed in the "friend zone", or avoided altogether.

So it seems the message here is: Be yourselves, fellas, but, if you're INTERESTED in a lady, show it!

Is that what you're getting at, mysteryman?

I prefer the term "decent men" to "nice guys"

Decent men defend boundaries, communicate well and ARE what women really want.

Oh, and it's not nice guys that finish last, it is the slow guys.

I have had this problem I think for the most part guys are overly nice becasue they don't have enought confindence, so they think they have to be nice to get the woman.

This is a statement that gets old and annoying- just who is it that decided this was true? If this is true then I guess it's equally as true that all men are only interested in supermodels and the rest of us don't stand a chance. You'd think we as humans would be on the verge of extinction if that were true.
Maybe nice guys finish last- but at least they finish, all the bad boys are kicked out of the race long before it's over- abandoned on the side of the road, kicked to the curb....
Interesting that it's nice GUYS and bad BOYS, that pretty much
says it all- they are nothing but boys who haven't grown up.
This writer's definition of a nice guy is rather skewed, since when does being nice mean you are nothing more than an agreeing doormat?

Lianna, most "nice guys" that call themselves such are appeasers, and it is my experience that most women want a man that can communicate in a healthy way, defend boundaries and stand up for what they want.

Under that definition, "nice guys" DO finish last, in the sense that they rarely get what they want, because they are not what women want (well, good, healthy women, anyway).

For example.

Lets compare a "decent man" as I have proposed versus a "nice guy" as I've defined.

the situation:

The woman is very grumpy, for a variety of reasons. She snaps at the man.

Decent man:

"While I want to provide you comfort, I reject being spoken to like that" He leaves, and on his way out "We can continue this conversation when you can respect me"

"Nice guy":

He takes her abuse, apologizes for all of men in general..etc... does everything he thinks she wants, but under it, he is resentful because he has just internalized her nasty words. All of these emotions come out later in one way or another, typically as passive aggressive communication. VERY UNHEALTHY.


I think most people in general, at least non-abusers, want someone that can defend their own boundaries and express themselves in a healthy way. NO ONE wants unresolved issues hanging around.

Ahhh I see, I guess I never thought of a "nice guy" as being what you described, really never thought of nice as being such a negative thing. I would agree that in those terms a nice guy wouldn't do very well.

When a guy says "she's a nice girl/woman/lady" does that same definition apply?

Dave said it perfect

Most of my "nice guy" friends are very nice, but painfully shy and awkward in front of women. They don't hit on women, don't approach women, and some of them hardly talk to women. Then, they watch on the sidelines as "bad boys" have women flock around them and are resentful because they consider themselves to be nice, decent men but don't have any luck with the ladies.

I resent this idea. Many of us ladies like nice guys, but we don't even know that these "nice guys" are interested in us.

This is best represented by my high school and quite frankly young college experience. I liked a particular guy in our group of friends, but he didn't seem very interested in me. He didn't go out of his way to talk to me, didn't call, didn't ask me out, and when I tried to flirt with him, he seemed uncomfortable. So, I dated other guys. I remember running into this guy a few years after graduation, and while catching up, he made a comment (jokingly) about how I was still dating jerky guys and it's too bad I wouldn't consider a nice guy like him. .....Um, I do consider nice guys like him. For a long time, I thought there was something wrong with ME for only attracting not nice guys. The problem was more that the not nice guys had the confidence to ask me out and DO SOMETHING about their attraction, while nice guys expected that by just being nice, women would somehow know my omission that they were interested and flock all over them.

I remember after my fiance and I broke up, I saw a post on his myspace account whining about how nice guys finish last. This was from a guy who I caught in bed with another woman less than a month after our son died, and then hit me so hard he gave me a concussion when I went over to our apartment to get some of my things. I think it's hilarious how some guys consider themselves "nice" and they are truly anything but.

@Lianna, I have never heard the term "nice woman" or "nice gal" to mean the same thing for women. I imagine there is some term that equates, but I can't think of one.

and I don't claim to own the definition for "nice guy" but was seeking to describe what I thought in the context of "finish last"

but, like all attempts to classify and catalog people's personalities, there are going to be flaws and places where it just doesn't apply.

I personally prefer to deal with people on an individual basis and try to avoid cliches and stereotypes.

(get's off soapbox)

@boomboom, I have run into the same thing many times in my life, where, years later I mentioned that I had been attracted to a woman, to which she gets frustrated and says

"Why didn't you TELL me? I was so totally hot for you"

in a way, it bothers me, but in a way... well, I got around enough as it was.

I think the important thing is to distinguish between decent, well meaning behavior and appeasement for the sake of getting what one wants, which is manipulative and dishonest.

I wonder if the corollary to this is "good girl" syndrome. You know, the good girl who has been taught to make nice at all costs, not make waves, put the needs of others before her own, etc. The good girl usually ends up with the A-hole who disrespects her acquiescence and abuses her "goodness".

A real man wants a real woman who can stand on her own and feels comfortable in herself, not a appeaser and pleaser. Just like a real woman wants a real man who is comfortable enough to stand on his own, not just a nice guy.

"While the nice guy is an agreeable person, he's got no control over his life. He allows women to come into his life, he agrees with them on everything, and hopes and prays that these women will like him for being so agreeable. It's so important for women to like him, so he's Mr. Agreeable..."


This doesn't describe "a nice guy." It describes a wishy washy individual who can't be trusted because one never knows what they really think. Ditto for someone who plays games.

I must have hit the jack pot!!!
My hubby is nice and kind and loving.
He doesn't run me and I don't run him.
We are partners, friends, and lovers.
He knows my thoughts sometimes but mostly he asks for things when he is ready, sometimes I am not but then again yeah I am.
We got to know each other first before any kind of sexual relationship happened. He also asked me to marry him before that too. It was worth the wait at least for me!!!
We are going on 26 years married and we love each other.
ttfn AnnieEm