How can you have a "healthy" relation when you always have to submit your will, needs, wants, and desires to another person.

Marriage is a union of two people. Not a master slave relationship. I have a good friend that got married two years ago. She wishes everyday now she never married her now hubby. Once the rings went on the finger she become the slave. She works full time [so does he] they have three kids together and if she don't have the house spotless clean, dinner on the table and etc. Its an all out war btw them. He don't lift a finger to help, he puts all the house work pressure on her.

I am in no rush for marriage... I am not one who dreams of perfect wedding day. All though I do have thoughts of places I would like to hold that ritual of union.

You did ask a good question...
Peace
Classic

Thanks, Classic. I sure don't want to be married either, and sometimes wonder if I'm even relationship material. If I have to walk on egg-shells and keep my mouth shut around her while she runs every aspect of my life, I'd die inside. But I don't want to be obnoxious and tower over her either. It's a fine line. Everyone has a lot of good ideas that I'll listen to and see if I can accomodate, while making myself happy too. All this involves a lot of awareness about the whole thing, as well as an attitude of "give-and-take". One hopes the "take" equals the "give".

Clearly the balance between those two you mentioned is skewed; she has submitted to him, and, if she's not happy in that arrangement, it will affect her physical and emotional health. My sister is in the early stages of MS, and I wonder if it came about, not only because of job stress, but the constant power struggles that goes on between her and her newlywed husband. They're both strong-willed people, and they were fighting even before she got pregnant. Better to support a child out of wedlock, I say, than live together in legal matrimony, have no options for another partner, and be miserable. I wasn't asked for my opinion (rightly so) beforehand, so they went ahead and got married, and are anything but happy at this point. Coupled with the fact that her husband treats my mother like shit (whoever heard of a husband treating his mother-in-law like shit? Any guy in his right mind knows that you not only marry her; you marry her family too, and getting along with the mother-in-law is the key to success and happiness, so you kiss the mother-in-law's ass! But my mother, God bless her, tries to help, and it comes across like meddling. He's working an insurance commissions-only sales business hard. My mother is making suggestions for full-time jobs for him to supplement or replace his commissions-only insurance sales business, which is obviously not paying well enough to make ends meet, and, when those kinds of suggestions are not well-received, she persists, so she's as much to blame--it's a mess).

Wish I could offer something constructive. I'm being careful with who I flirt with and always carry condoms on me. There's just something about marriage that shrieks "ownership", and none of that sounds very appealing to me. I don't want to own her and I don't want her to own me. My attitude is "we're both free, and I'll do my very best to make you happy, while making me happy, but, if you're not happy, there's the door." Life's too short. Guilt only goes so far.

oh boy two different things there koolman.
I agree 100% on the submitting to each other, it has to be an equality and it has to be something thats discussed. Like to put it simple, you tell your spouse you want to do something and they say no they want to do this its all about comprimising so both feel they are giving and receiving from each other.
Sounds confusing but it really isnt. Sexually is ANOTHER Story then your just lucky to find someone that can give and receive evenly or at least close enough to evenly. good luck on that! lol

In the Bible the woman is suppose be submissive to the man. This should not make her a doormat either. There is also a verse saying the man should treat her like the weaker vessel and it is his position to be the head of the household to oversee all is taken care of. If both are doing there rolls accordingly then both should be happy. There are relationships where the woman is more head strong. So the man should find a way to let her be so but without over powering him. Men and women are both equal but made with desire to want to be protected and have a man lead that is respectful and loving of her when he does so. This is applied to those that believe in the Bible and try to apply this. There are some relationships that if there is communication and each knows what they can expect from the other in agreement work also if they are not religious.

If you can't find a common ground you probably have not found the right woman for you yet.

I have always thought "the submitting thing" meant to try and think of your spouse or significant other's needs, ect.... More as being considerate...... don't know if they used that word back then, often. And if it's mutual, it will only strengthen the bond. Your definitely on the right track about "ruling" = "running".
I know plenty of women who like amorous attention, when they are in a good relationship.

I agree with submitting your self. You can't make your marriage partnership work if you are looking out for your best interest. Sometimes you do things becasue your partner likes it and vise versa. (However this is not a slave relationship-that would make it unhealthy) I have not really thought about it in a sexual manner, but I guess it would work there too.

as i recall, there is supposed to be mutual submission. there is a verse that refers to mutual submission.

there is an actual command for women to respect their husbands and there is an actual command for men to love their wives. women aren't natural at respecting "unconditionally" and men aren't natural at loving "unconditionally".

so God took what was the hardest things and commanded us to do those so that we may mutually submit to another, making every effort to live at peace with one another.

Ephesians 5:33 "However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

Ephesians 5:20,21 "giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God."

Romans 14:19 "Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification."

Love our wives (or SOs) as we love ourselves: And to love ourselves, I think we really, really need to love something inside ourselves...from a Biblical stanpoint, call it the Holy Spirit, call it what you will, but it has to be a source of warmth that we can relax, meditate in and call upon, that gives us a sense of inner peace and a strong central spiritual core. Another human being will (hopefully) strengthen that core, and they will take something from it too, because they have their own core too that they're trying to strengthen.

you have a point koolman, especially for people that are codependent.

i only brought in the bible scriptures because you had mentioned "During every wedding ceremony I photograph, I hear the pastor say something like "men submit to their wives and wives submit to their husbands the way Christ loved the church".

marriage is really difficult....

Marriage is difficult: No question. I ain't sure it's for me. Maybe I'm too strong-willed and stubborn to constantly lay whatever pride I've got at her feet and say "yes dear" all the time...

Until I've known someone long enough to know she's got my back and is only trying to help me. Gotta talk to find all this out.

I think when people hear the word "submit" they instantly think of someone lording in the relationship. When you look up the word in the dictionary it actually refers to submit as participation in discussion , to present or refer to others in the decision-making process. That sounds much more easier to digest than thinking you have to be lorded over like a sub-standard individual. In the real estate business we have to "submit" the correct documentation before receiving our commission checks. If we submit to one another in a marriage or what ever relationship we have, the payoff will be success.

On the other hand I was asked by a lady to a party I arrive with wine and she opened door naked and took me in the hall and no we were not in any sort of 'relationship'

I like how kjam put it. I am going to say when I first read the topic title I wondered if the post wasn't about bdsm. There you will have men and women slaves. lol