Grandparents Raising Children Support Group

This community is dedicated to grandparents who are the primary caregivers of their grandchildren. In cases where the parents are not willing or able to provide adequate care for their children, grandparents may take on the role of primary caregivers. Join the support group to find support, share your experience, and get advice from other members.

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pbkzata 03/05/2010

allowing the bios (supervised) contact, i.e, unlimited phone contact and weekly visitation (when the bio "feels like it") or curtailing some of it and making harder, faster rules?

Long story short... gs has been in my custody 4 1/2 years; he's 10. That's more than half the life he can remember. Bio mom is my dd (34) who's been in and out of episodes of bipolar and drug use. She's currently in residential treatment (clean/sober since last June) 50 miles away. She is receiving SSDI. "Daddy" is also a druggie with about 20 years or more of using. Everthing. Booze, pot, pills, cocaine, crack, heroin... and lately I suspect meth. (Smelled "funny," chemical like a few weeks ago. Called him on it; he lied, of cours.) He's been in rehab a few times, too, but currently doesn't work, doesn't pay his court-ordered child support, doesn't have a car, phone, or "real" place to live. He's 41. Mom calls every night, without fail. We've visited her at the residential 3 times since she went there (prior she was 4 months in jail). Daddy calls intermittently during the week and wants to visit with gs, usually once a week.

The dilemma... gs idolizes "daddy." Thinks he's the greatest dad in the world. But the last persons, of course, I want my gs to have contact with is addicts, currently using. I tried the route of demanding drug-tests and stopping visits for awhile (daddy had an active warrant and I really didn't want my gs seeing him led away in hand-cuffs) but relented when he went into residential. Allowed calls every night. Then he left the program, went on a binge, we didn't see him regularly for awhile, but he came back around and started calling and seeing him again. Got a job for a little while, even. Now it seems he's back up to the old tricks.

So... part of me thinks that gs has a right to know both his parents (Honestly, I don't really give a s*it about bio's rights... either of 'em). But another part of me thinks it's just wrong to expose a child, at such an impressionable age, to an active addict. I sure don't want him to get the idea that his "parents'" life-style is in any way, shape, or form, normal, healthy or a good way to live.

How have others of you handled something like this? Where's the line between allowing something you know your gc wants, i.e., to see the bios, and but not allowing things that just aren't good for the kiddo?

Input?

SaraBT 03/05/2010

My husband's daughter is an active addict, as is the bio-dad of the two youngest. He has not had anything to do with them for years.

When bio-mom is clean and sober (usually lasts no longer than a month) we allow her visitation as often as she wants -- as long as she finds a way to get to our house and home again. No rides, no checking bus schedules, no money for buses, etc.

When she's actively using we allow phone calls, but I have informed everyone that I will be listening in to make sure she doesn't say anything damaging (like making promises she won't keep, running anyone down, etc.).

Her number is currently blocked because she went to live with her mother only to get high, beat up her mom and stepfather, and get kicked out once again. We'll probably unblock her phone this weekend. We blocked it only because WE couldn't stand the thought of hearing from her -- otherwise we would go off on her which isn't good for the kids.

Wow, if she were ever in recovery for that length of time (since last June) she would probably have full access to the kids.

Personally, I wouldn't let "Daddy anywhere near the kids, phone or otherwise, unless you listen in to every call. He sounds too unpredictable and potentially dangerous, especially if he's using meth. I also think exposing children to drunks and high druggies sends a terrible message. I'd rather that the kids think people who are high are freaks -- maybe that will help them stay away from substance abuse themselves.

pbkzata 03/05/2010

>Personally, I wouldn't let "Daddy anywhere >near the kids, phone or otherwise, unless >you listen in to every call. He sounds too >unpredictable and potentially dangerous, >especially if he's using meth. .

Well, to his credit (and it kills me to give him any of that at all) he doesn't come over obviously high. And when he does, he's basically a "play-mate" i.e, they shoot baskets, shoot spit-balls at each other at McDonalds (while I read book 2 tables away)and don't have much meaningful conversation at all. Phone calls are very short in duration (they don't have much in common... bio-dad still thinks the kid is 5) and consist mainly in "I love you" and "good-night, sleep tight" (sometimes those lines over and over again.) Conversations with bio-mom are no more so intelligent. 10 minutes in duration (that's what she's allowed daily) much of it consists in "Guess what? Chicken-butt! Guess why? Chicken pie!!" And they go on like that alot.

I guess my problem is, if the druggie was anyone else besides the bio, would I allow that person ANYWHERE within a mile of the gc? Absolutely not, NO WAY, and never all rolled into one.

SaraBT 03/05/2010

Pbkzata, that's an interesting question -- and no, we wouldn't allow ANYONE near our children or grandchildren who were like the bios, if they were strangers.

I think I'm a bit too Victorian in my attitudes for today's relaxed standards. If I had my way the grandchildren would probably never see their bios again. You abandon a child, you're done. You are no longer a parent. Only if that first abandonment results in the bios realizing what's happening, going into therapy, recovering, and staying recovered for at least a year, would I relent.

But I have to live in a more "kumbaya" world than that.

daisydduck 03/09/2010

Therapists say that it is good for child to maintain some form of relationship w/bio parent. That, of course, is not always the best. You s/not take away from child's relationship w/bio dad. For some reason, he is hanging on to that and that is security for him. That does not mean you let him have visitation if he is on drugs or taking him to wrong place, people, etc. You are in control. You can set visits in a neutral place where you are there, like a mall, restaurant, movie theater, etc. Tell the bio dad you need his cooperation. In the long run, your gc will see that it is you taking care of him and dad w/lose face.

pbkzata 03/10/2010

Hi Daisy (was my grandmother's name BTW),

I do understand the kiddo's attachment to bio-dad, and have always maintained that the more people who love and care about a child, the better. However, I'm not altogether sure, in this case, it's the bio who cares about the kiddo for the kiddo's sake but only for his own sake. Bio seems much more concerned about gratifying his own (and I might add "sick") need for emotional gratification than he is about doing the best for the child. That's why trying to get him on board with cooperation is pretty difficult. I've considered even asking him if he wants his kid to hang around with druggies but I sincerely doubt if he'd even get my point. (He's not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, either.)

As for the visits... I don't allow bio to take him anywhere. Ever. They're always within my line of sight and visits usually occur at a fast-food place near my home. However, here I am putting myself out, yet again (isn't it enough I'm giving YEARS of my life to something I didn't choose?) I also still have this nagging feeling that it's just not healthy for gc to see the kind of life style bio lives, up close and personal. (I'm even sorry they brought all this depraved existence into MY life!)

Thanks for your thoughts.

daisydduck 03/10/2010

I do understand. My sil kept taking our gs to his parent's house where grandpa had raped his own daughter and grandma told her sons that daughter "teased" her father into doing it! We worked closely with our lawyer, had court appoint a GAL for our gs and followed judges rulings exactly. It took awhile but eventually they were "predictably stupid" and made enough mistakes for the court to see who they really were and he was placed in our custody. As many have advised, keeping records of visits and communication with dates and times is imperative. Try and set up visits where your gs w/see the "real" dad. Is this the best way? Absolutely not! However, until the courts give grandparents standing and defend the rights of the bio parent, it is the way we must handle it if we are to protect our gc's future. My gs is now 20 and facing the demons of the abuse he lived through while we were fighting to get him out of there. Does that make a difference to court? No! As I have mentioned before I am bringing out my second book this spring called: "Born Into Love". It is about the plight of grandparents giving up their retirement years to raise a second family as well as providing statistics and studies on the subject. I w/post when it is available. I am waiting for the cover design. It will be sent to legislators at state and federal levels, media, school districts and, of course, Oprah, who has managed to ignore the subject though she was raised by her grandparents. I cannot change the fact that you are giving up so much, and that is not fair. However, I know that you, like the rest of us, would not change a thing regarding our gc and what we do for them.

SaraBT 03/10/2010

Here's another perspective: When we adopt a child, all ties to the bios are severed. Some children try to find their bios when they get older, and that may or may not turn out for the best.

In essence, we have "adopted" our grandchildren even if we haven't gone through a formal court process. The bios do not want to, or cannot, raise their kids -- the same reason they would have given a baby up for adoption.

What is the harm of not encouraging a relationship with them? If we have become parents by default, we have, in a sense, adopted them by default. WE are now the parents.

I'm just asking, because I've seen experts claim that a child raised by an actively using drug addict or alcoholic is better off than if he or she were in foster care.

Experts don't know everything. And many of these "experts" learned through books and research rather than actually doing it.

BuffyS 03/10/2010

I hear what you're saying, Sara, but pbk's problem is mine too. Once the kids have established a relationship with the bio parents, it would be harmful to take that away from them entirely. In my case, I had to humor both bios until we could get them to agree to the adoption. That took over 3 years, so it's too late for us to remove bio mom and dad from our granddaughter's world. Even at 3 1/2 years old, she totally knows who they are and loves them both.

Like everyone else advised, I would only allow supervised visits, just as you've been doing. And if bio dad is high, no visit that day. It is frustrating that we're stuck with these bio parents even when we hold all the cards. But we can't hold all the emotional cards and cutting off all contact with bio mom and/or dad could do the child more damage than the supervised visits. With time, don't you trust your grandson to actually "get it" and see why "dad" isn't raising him?

daisydduck 03/10/2010

It's more experience than expert advise. The simple fact is that a child who is abused by a parent w/defend that parent because of the basic parent/child relationship. "Experts" have found that taking the parent out of the child's life only leaves them feeling that they must have done something to make the parent go away. My gs has had teachers that should have been fired for their inadequacies but I maintained that he must respect the teacher as an adult and a teacher. I spoke to the teacher without his presence and suggested she do her job which rarely happened. People, both family and outside sources are what makes our children (or grandchildren) who they are. "It takes a village to raise a child". So even though a bio parent may be an addict and even though it would be better if they were not involved with any child, we must go through the process of maintaining a relationship until the child is old enough to see the truth. At 16, our gs had a great deal of anger towards his bio father who he had not seen in 10 years. At 20, he apologizes for the hurt that his bio father caused us. It is not a simple equation and you cannot just shuffle them under the carpet.

deleted_user 03/10/2010

i wouldnt keep the gs from his dad. while drug abuse is never healthy or a good way of life for your sil it is normal. as long as he is not using when he is with his son, and he wants to maintain a relationship with him i would not take it away. if you do your gs could grow to resent you later, and if the dad ever gets straight he could take the gs and might not let him see you anymore!

deleted_user 03/11/2010

My rule has been like a divorce settlement. Bio-loser-Dad gets to see the kids, supervised by his grandmother, for the day at her home, as long as he has no active warrants on him. The day I find out that he was alone with the boys or driving around or has some drama, that would have come to an end. He's in jail now, for 8 months, and the boys' therapist advised AGAINST them being brought to the jail to see him. She said that she felt they had been exposed to enough in their lives without throwing jail into the experience pot. The rules were the same for my daughter. They don't get to see them every week, they can't see them if they have a warrant, but they can call and talk to them whenever they want, as long as it is well before bedtime. And I would explain ALL of this to your grandson. He needs to know exactly WHY you have these rules. Does your grandson know his parents use drugs? Has he had any therapy himself about all of that? They have groups for children his age, where he will be able to listen to other kids' stories and understand. He is lucky that he doesn't remember the times before.

pbkzata 03/11/2010

I hear the part about kids, particularly abused or neglected ones, defending the parents. Gc does so, and even at one point awhile ago proclaiming to his bio-mom that she was the best mommy in the world! (HA!) She was so proud of that I had to explain to her (not in front of the child) that children often do that, particularly if they are feeling neglected or rejected by the parent. They want so badly to be accepted by them they curry favor by telling the bios how wonderful they are. The other side of the coin is that we, the quasi-parents, get the occasional bad behavior and the I hate yous when we have to discipline or say no. A saying a heard the other day about GP raising GC. We are the ground beneath their feet. Thats why they feel safe to stomp on us.

And I guess its not so much that I dont trust the gc to eventually get it. I think it might be that hes getting to such an impressionable age And Ive always been the over-protective type when it comes to kiddos.

Im not particularly afraid the bio-dad will get his act together and try to take him back. I dont think theres a snow-balls chance in h*ll thatll ever happen. Bio has 20 yrs or more of hard drug use behind him; would take some doing to dig himself out of that deep hole. Gc is 10 and Ive had him 4 years. Those foolish, foolish parents. No idea of all theyve missed in that time, and I doubt if they ever will have clue.

deleted_user 03/11/2010

I want to add that I can't think how many times I have said or thought "I wish they would all just go away." As your grandson gets older, he will see how useless his parents are to him. You are about to enter the difficult years, 10 to like 18, when he will use whatever he can to rebel against you, and breaking off things with his dad will just add fuel to that. The bio-parents are NOT going to be allowed to tell these kids that I was the one who kept them from seeing them, etc. They aren't going to be handed that convenient excuse. Yes, you are putting yourself out and it is a PAIN in the a$$ to have to deal with these people, but it's part of the deal we have to handle.

daisydduck 03/11/2010

Many of these kids are more mature in ways we wish they were not because of what they have experienced with bio parents. Sharon, you right about the teen years. We just went through them and it was quite a ride! He began to rationalize that if it wasn't for him, our lives w/be better and our daughter might still be alive and that we only took him in because he is our daughter's child. We were aghast at this as we had always held him as our son since we adopted him and always kept the doors open affirming our love for him as our son. He's 20 now and the damages from his early life are haunting him but our relationship is more solid than ever. He is going through a tremendous emotional growth period and so are we. pbk: it sounds like you are doing the best for your gs and I'm sure the security that gives him is creating a strong bond with you. Re drug education: the DARE program has become somewhat of a joke and does not meet the needs of today's children. When they reach the teen years and feel overwhelmed they may feel they understand why that bio parent ran to the drugs and alcohol. Research is now showing that teens brains are not fully developed and that is why they do a lot of stupid things. We used to be able to protect them from outside sources but that is no longer the case. They are now saying that most males do not reach full maturity in brain development until early to mid 20's. Yet, these individuals are considered legally responsible. We, as parents (grans) need to keep that in mind when we are disciplining. They need more guidance and assurance than discipline. Be firm, be structured and keep those doors of communication open.

SaraBT 03/11/2010

I believe in honesty, and I also believe that young children perceive that someone would rather not be raising them. So we got that out of the way with our three grandchildren right up front.

They know -- and have known -- that we would rather be living our years child free. They also know that this is normal. Sometimes it's even cute the way they say "we'll go out and play and let you and Pop-Pop be alone." I simply say "thank you, that's so sweet and considerate!" I think it lets them have "control," if only over one action.

But they also know, and we always show them by our actions, that we love them to death and do not want them anywhere else. In fact, whenever the subject of their mom getting them back comes up, I'm in the background laughing and making "NO!" NO! -- stay with us!" gestures that have them laughing as well.

I think that by diffusing these situations while they're young, they'll be less likely to have them gob-smack them just when their hormones are raging. That's my theory, at least. We'll see how well it works out :-0

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