Sara, you are right. The ideal situation is that bios remain in the child's life, BUT, if the visit are detrimental to child, it is best to draw the line. With out gs, bio dad walked away from visitation because he didn't want to be bothered. How do you tell you gc that their parent just doesn't want them anymore? We had to deal also with a perverted extended family of bio dad. Judge and lawyers, including GAL said it would be better if they just walked away so we could establish security for our gs. Yes, in the beginning he asked about his dad. He was concerned for dad's safety. The good news is that kids are so easy to distract! When gs asked about dad, we just said that as far as we knew, he was fine, and moved quickly onto a distraction. It took awhile but today, at 22, instead of focusing on abuse from dad and stepmom, he states he had a very good childhood and goes to mention our extended family who love him, the trips we took together, the little rituals we created for our new family (like picking him up from gymnastics, getting chinese carryout and getting home in time to watch Nash Bridges) every Friday for a year. I also sought out parents of kids his age in neighborhood and school for playdates. We would have hot dog and oreo parties to the kids always enjoyed, including gs. For a few years I kept him involved alot, marshal arts, gymastics, religious education, library programs, and soccer. The more we created our family, the less he asked about bio dad. Please understand that in the child's mind, they feel responsible for what happened to bio mom, even though they may have been the ones abused. That is why they ask for "mom". Ask your therapist about grieving therapy to help the child move forward w/o guilt. This has been proven so necessary for grandchildren.

I think another thing that has been helpful with us is that we've been 100% honest with the kids. Of course, age-appropriate :-)

For example, we tell the kids that the best thing for them is consistency, and that we want their mother to learn that she has to stay in their lives all the time or it isn't good for them. And we discuss the fact that their mother is no good to them if she's sleeping the entire time she's with them. So we talk about how we're trying EVERYTHING to make her clean up her act -- including the fact that she isn't allowed in our house for a while.

I think (i HOPE) they understand that. They know what it means to be sent to their rooms, so maybe they know somewhere inside that "Mommy is being sent to her room" for doing drugs again and getting arrested.

I suppose we're all experimenting to find the thing that works best. This is new territory for all of us :-0

You are doing the right thing Buffy we have to protect these kids, and we also deserve to have happy calm lives ourselves. Its not easy on us raising kids at our ages, some of us may have health issues ourselves. I have my share of aches and pains from working hard since i was 18. I agree with Daisy that we have to start our own traditions with the kids and give them the stability that they need. Every Sunday my gs and i go to church with my parents then we have lunch at either our house or their house, he likes that and has a close relationship with his great grandparents. On Saturdays my boyfriend and i take him to swimming lessons in the morning then after we take him to McDonalds for lunch. After daycare he loves to come home and play with his Uncle my son thats 19, they go outside and kick around the soccer ball around. Him and Papa my boyfriend walk the dog together a lot, sometimes they stop off at the store for a treat aswell. All these things are memories that are being made for gs, i really hope hes like Daisy's gs and remembers having a good life growing up with us.

I just heard Rach (the Bio) had this huge tattoo across her shoulder with my oldest Grands name....OMG!!! Why I let this bug me, i'll never know. Some of her friends don't even know she has an older child, the ones that do she has told I stole her lol.

Nanner, you struck a familiar cord with both your posts. I too did everything to get my daughter to come back when she left her first child. The poor baby mourned her mother's leaving and would lay on the floor keening for her. She now lives with her Dad and adoptive step mom, and will forever be in couseling over her loss. With Gs, I just let her walk, never once encouraging her to visit. It was difficult at times for me, because she was my youngest, and I will always have a special place in my heart for her. But I needed to greive that loss this time. I didnt have the chance with such a sad child before. Gs has faired much better without Moms involvement over the years. She finally returned after 18 months, played the same sick games and when I wouldnt allow he to continue unless it were by my rules, she just dropped off again. That time it did hurt Gs because he was older. It has now been 14 months she she has had contact with him, but she still wants me to be her Mom. I cant. She is 30 years old, lied, cheated, and stole from us. She has emotionally (and quite possibly physically) abused 2 innocent children and continues to live her life as if she were the innocent victim of a vengeful deranged Mother. We had a termination hearing last Wed. for her & bio Dad. She, once again, never showed up or responded. We now have another date in May after which we are adopting. I was sad, and sick to my stomach at the thought of facing her last week, but after knowing how little her son means to her that she cant at least respond to a summons for termination? I will not hesitate this time. My Gs has a chance a a good life with us, and we will do everything possible to ensure that he has it. If she ever gets well, gets straight, we will talk about visits. But not until Gs can handle it and that will not be for a long time. I had to make a choice that no mother should have to make. That many of us on this sight have been forced to make. That of choosing one child over another.

Bingo! Having to choose one child over another. That's exactly what we've been forced to do. (I too am seen as the deranged mother) Today in counseling, the therapist explained to me that the stress and raw emotions my daughter brings out in me directly affects how my granddaughter feels. She is the one who is directly damaged when I am strung out, hurt, angry--all the negative feelings my daughter elicits from me with her ridiculous behaviour and nasty text messages.

My grand is almost 6 and the therapist strongly urges us to keep my daughter away for at least 3 to 5 years, when my grand is older and has more inner strength. Maybe at that time, she can have some kind of contact with my daughter/her mother, but not before. It's just too traumatizing to both her and to me. The therapist explained this to my grand again today and she even said, "I know, if my mother won't take medicine and see a doctor, then I can't see her b/c she's mean to me." Heartbreaking stuff.

It sounds cruel to us today, but in the "old days" a troublesome child would be declared "dead to us," and that solved everything. The family grieved and moved on.

Buffy my son walked out of our lives almost 10 years ago and has refused us to meet his child now 7. Why? Because he feels we were wrong in raising our Gs.no that's wrong. He wanted to raise him because he and his wife were unable to conceive. We agreed but the court only considered us. We are pretty sure he is bi polar and has huge anger issues. So I have lost a daughter to brain cancer, a son to ?,and I had no choice. Sara, I disagree that the bio always wins. It may seem that way but as the saying goes: you sometimes have to lose a battle to win the war. After all is said and done, it w be you the children turn to and they w only have pity for their mother. It is heart breaking to lose a child of any age. Its downright heartbreaking. But sometimes we don't have a choice. I w always pray that my son w see the light and come back, but I know it w probably never happen. So I mourn for him and my daughter. However I do win because I still have my younger daughter and her two girls. Her husband treats us better than our own son and we have our Gs. We have a stronger bond with him and he is protective of us as he know we protected him. Buffy, it w be hard but understand your daughter is sick and selfishness is part of that illness. The only way you can help her is to accept that you can't help her. But, you can help your gd.

Feeling like I've been forced to choose one child over another has been something I've had to deal with, too. When one is an adult and the other is a baby, though, there's no question who we are going to choose to protect. But, no mother should be put in that position. Makes me think of the story in the Bible where the 2 women were both claiming one baby and the King ordered the child to be divided in half. The "real" mother said "NO way; give the child to her" and then the King KNEW who the real mother was. Addiction and mental illness are alot like that knife; threatening to tear our grandbabies right down the middle. We have to be the ones to step in and save them; we have to be the "real" mother because the bios aren't well enough to be.

GMa, I too have referenced that Bible story when talking about our family situation. I am so sad for my daughter, but I cannot jeopardize my Gs's welfare because she is unable and unwilling to parent.

GMa, that's a beautiful story. It is true that as mothers or grandmothers, we'd rather lose than see the children hurt. What pitiful situations we have found ourselves in because we love our families. Thanks for sharing that.

Sara, you frequently say that perhaps it is different because you are not the mother. It is different. They say that a mother has a hormonal bond with her child for 18 months after birth. It is a period of bonding that cannot be removed. I was happy that my daughter lived long enough to share that with her son. I know that my feelings towards my gs were definitely different from my biological children. However, as time goes on and you develop the bond with the child(ren), your feelings grow stronger and a bond is created. I think you have created that bond with your gc, even without sharing the same bloodline. You have earned the title of "mom".

Your post affirmed my instincts to put my GD first, It was easier with her bio mom, she was not my daughter and never showed that she really cared much. She never showed up for court and we have had custody for 3 years now. Bio dad is our son, that was harder, as he tried at first. The last 2 years we saw him rarely. I was lucky as my GD was with me every other week for the first 2 years, until final orders were done 3 yrs. ago giving us shared custody with son. It was hard worrying about her the weeks she was with bio mom, but lawyer said we had to build a history to get custody. But looking back it did give her some stability. She also didn't grieve for bio mom as she was used to whoever bio mom was with at the time caring for her, so there was not a strong bond. As for bio dad, she knows hes daddy, but treats him more like an uncle. She knows he isnt reliable at 5 yrs. old and seems okay with it.
Anyway, I often wondered if I was doing the right thing by not pushing for bio's to visit, letting GD call us mom and dad( she did this after being with us fulltime on her own, i couldnt let myself correct her, as I have been the only Mom she knows), Talking about them to her etc. Now I know for sure I did the right thing for her. She is happy, secure and was spared their rejection. Now if i can get their rights terminated so we can adopt her. it is very hard at my age 50 to care for 5 yr. old, but somehow I manage. Its good that you have therapy to help you through this.