I am happy for you but sad for you at the same time. Is there a court order in effect that you have to give visits? If so, will this counselor back you up in court if need be?

I do agree with what the therapist is saying however.

Best of luck.

Gamma: Yes, she and bio dad signed the TPRs and I adopted my granddaughter so bio parents have absolutely no rights. The therapist has dealt with court-ordered therapy, DCF situations, etc., and he can help me if necessary.

My grand pines for her mother though, and that causes me distress. A big part of the therapy is for me to let go of my daughter emotionally. Like you said, it's sad.

I'm sorry for the position that you have been put in Buffy, and I strongly suspect I will end up in the exact same position concerning my son and my GS. My son's rights were terminated on the 9th, after having had 3 years to meet his "service plan" and failing. The last time he had seen us was on Christmas and then low & behold, he called Weds. night to ask if he could come over for a visit. He got dropped off for his visit, but then needed a ride home, which I really don't mind doing as it's only across town. However, during his visit he kept talking about his new part-time job, which he's also supplementing with 2 paper routes and talking about looking to get his own place; blah, blah, blah. Crap I've been hearing for too long now & I let go in one ear & out the other. Well, on our way to take him home I had my GS's music playing so I couldn't really quite hear what he was talking to my GS about in the middle seats of the van, but I did hear him say something about, "would you like that?" So when I got back home with my GS, I asked him some questions and found out that my Son was telling my GS he would have his own room at daddy's new house where he could sleep. ?????? WTH???? I was ticked. I think I'm going to write him a letter explaining some ground rules. If he isn't willing to follow them, he also will not be a part of our lives. He has a VERY LONG way to go before I would even let my GS visit him for a couple of hours at "his own place"; much LESS allow him to "spend the night" at daddy's house. & now I"m wondering if he's actually in denial and still thinks he can have his son living with him at some point.

I think either they're in denial or they want to look good in the eyes of the kids. I'm SURE Pinky is badmouthing my husband and me when she calls the kids. I've heard stuff through the years when I was listening in on calls. I've stopped doing that because it just makes me crazy, and I the last few times I failed to warn her upfront. I heard her telling the eldest (only 12 years old) that she was going to take us to court for visitation.

I am SO confident that the 12-year-old knows the truth that I no longer bother trying to set her straight. She can see the difference. She knows that we never badmouth Pinky, but that we're honest, using "just the facts, Ma'am" whenever there's an issue. And bottom line is that I would never "win" in a contest between Pinky and me anyway. The bio ALWAYS wins, so I'll just settle for a realistic knowledge of her by the kids.

Sometimes I just can't believe I'm going through this again. Went through it with their mother, my husband's ex, for many years. But while all three love their bio, they respect me more - they've told me and my husband tells me, so I guess that counts.

I do wish I had been able to totally cut her out of their lives as well -- maybe we wouldn't be in the position we're in now had I done that.

I'm also so sorry Buffy. It's so hard to give up on your child, and so emotionally draining. That's the saddest part, in order to protect our grands, we have to give up our own children. You are right, the grands do have to come first.

Gma, I think all the bios are in denial, they think their luck is gonna change, they'll miraculously be straight, have a place to live and be able to take care of their kids. . . this time. Stick to your guns! I'm like you, my dd has a long way to go before she can consider overnight visits.

Luck to you both!

I just sent my son a letter. I'm sure he'll pitch a hell of a fit after he reads it, but it won't be in my presence or my GS's. I told him that he is not to make comments about my GS having a bedroom at his new place or lead GS to believe he will be living with him at some point. I told him his rights have been terminated but that as far as I know, supervised visits can continue; however, I'm not playing games raising my GS. I went through that with my stepson - always thinking he could go live with his "real" mom and then played them again when I divorced my 2 bio kids' father - them thinking they could go live with their stepmom (dad was in prison!). I'm not having my GS growing up with any doubt in his mind whatsoever who is going to raise him and where he's going to live. I'm too old to go through that crap again. I told my son I'm committed to doing whatever it takes for at least the next 14 years to raise my GS in a stable environment and told him he can't not call and not come around for 3 whole months and then just show up and start saying things like that to my GS and also reminded him that it's unrealistic anyway. I sent the letter because I refuse to get into an altercation with him in front of my GS. Even at 3 years old, as Sara said, the bio always wins. About a year ago, my son & I got into a heated discussion during one of his visits and my GS told me to stop being mean at his daddy. Surprisingly, my son did say that MawMaw wasn't being mean to daddy; but it didn't matter; that's the way my GS saw it. So, he got a letter. Now it's in black & white & he can REread it if he doesn't understand something. His reaction should be interesting.

We FINALLY got a message from Pinky, whining that she wants to see "her" kids. This is two weeks after my husband threw her out of our house for using.

As usual, and as I'm sure you all know, it was all about HER. "I need to see my kids," "I don't want to see them at the mall," "I miss my kids," etc. NOTHING about the fact that the kids want to see her.

I told my husband he's in charge of handling it. I'm not even going to answer her phone calls until he does.

Good, Sara. You deserve a break from the craziness.

My daughter is different than Pinky though, because she wants me to ask my grand if she wants to see my daughter. I don't need to ask her, because I already know she thinks she wants to see her. But the therapist basically lectured me for an hour about what a huge mistake ANY contact would be. He said kids shouldn't have the power to decide these types of things (duh) and not to ever put her in a position of being able to have such a request granted.

Other than that, yes, it's all about what the bio mom wants. "It's been the worst 5 months of my life...I miss my daughter...you told me the break was temporary (bullshit)...blah blah blah.

How easily my daughter forgets I used to BEG her to spend time w/her child and give my husband and me a few hours off. She never wanted to do that; she just wanted to come visit here at my house and eat my food, then play on my computer for a bit, then leave. Minimal quality time w/her her own daughter. Basic math: 3 hours per visit X maybe 3 times a month = 9 hours per month if my grand was "lucky."

One thing my daughter said in her nasty text was so very true: "I know if I moved away and you never saw me again, you wouldn't care." It's not that I wouldn't care, it's that my life would be so much less stressful.

After our daughter's death, we made every attempt to work with bio dad in raising gs. He chose a woman who is seriously mentally ill and she caused a great deal of hurt not only to us, but especially to our gs, mostly terrible emotional abuse. After a long period of hystrionics and abuse, the court put gs with us. The bio father was supposed to have visitation, but every visit caused more damage. Lawyers, including gal, agreed it w/be best for gs if they just went away. After a year of missed and/or chaotic visits, bio dad said he wanted nothing more to do with son and we could adopt. Financially, we knew it would be hard but we opted for adoption to protect our gs from any of the crazies getting to him. gs went through grief therapy to deal with bio dad out of his life and we ensued on giving him as normal a life as possible. For you, it is your own daughter and that is hard but I think the therapist has the best in mind for you and gd and I can only wish you the best. With that pressure off of you, you can enjoy each other and allow the child to grow in a normal household. Bless you.

Buffy,
This has to be both very depressing but liberating at the same time. The more time goes by I seriously think of asking my GD's therapist about the intermittent contact and how bad it is for my GD.

Now bio dad's GF is applying for apartments down close to us and trying to convince bio to stay in state rather than going to Montana. Wish all of them would just go away.

Buffy, since I'm not a bio-mom I can't truly understand the emotional pull of distancing oneself from their own children. But if the therapist was so emphatic that's really an eye-opener! Usually, therapists weasel out of making definite pronouncements, so he must be absolutely sure. And that should keep you from feeling any guilt at all.

I can't believe I popped on your post, I'm not the only one out here raising my Grandkids! I never really thought I was, I just never explored groups with the same issues. My Daughter hasn't seen her girls since July 2011, I've had the 7 year old since she was 4 months, and I've had the baby since she was 2 weeks and now she is 2. I also let their Mom make the (occasional) visits and also let her keep the oldest for the weekend at my Mothers house under her guidance, this has only caused heartache for my GD. After seeing what it did to my oldest GD, I wasn't about to make the same mistake again. It's been extremely emotional for me, but only because the bio hasn't made the first attempt, not even a phone call. I can't believe she is my Daughter!!! Buffy it sounds like we are at the same crossroad with out kids, just yell if you need to vent. Good luck to you :)

Thanks, nanner. Yeah, learn from my mistakes--if your daughter doesn't have visitation rights, you aren't doing your grands any favors imposing her onto them. It has caused my grand unbelievable confusion and anger. I wish I had cut my daughter off 2 years ago when the adoption was finalized.

I wonder if the kids are really all that screwed up without their bios, anyway. Pinky has been calling and leaving semi-nasty voice messages because she wants to see her kids.

"I want to see my kids! I don't want to see them at the mall. I was arrested two months ago, for crying out loud! You're treating me like a criminal! It isn't faaaaaair! Waaaaaa."

I-I-I-me-me-me-me.

Then she said that the kids NEED to see her (I guess she suddenly remembered). But the kids were at birthday parties yesterday, they're going to other birthday parties today, and so far they haven't even asked if "mommy" is coming to see them again. Even when she was here every weekend that didn't stop their own social lives. In fact, if they had a party PINKY was the only one who complained.

I-I-I-I-me-me-me-me.

And the kids seem quite well adjusted, so what should I make of that?????

Sara, it means you are doing a great job! Keep it up!