It depends on your state laws. I would get a lawyer. They have to prove more than just being able to provide. Where I live once granted permanent guardianship, the parents cannot take us back to court. We have to terminate on our own unless of course there was some reason we were unfit. Has she been visiting with kids during these past years at all?

Diana, look up the California State Supreme Court page and see if you can find grandparent case opinions there. That can give you an idea of the leanings of the courts. The U.S. Constitution does not state who has the priority in the courts as far as decision of custody of children. When it was written, extended families were the norm and nobody questioned the parental rights. Traditionally, court decisions has been in the favor of bio parents, and they could not anticipate the situations we face today. It is also difficult to declare a parent unfit. Actually, no state has listed what it takes to determine the fitness or unfitness of the parent. However, over the past 10 years, the courts have begun to realize that parents are not always capable of raising their own children and grandparents are stepping in. They are also holding the best interest of the child and grandparents are beginning to be heard. Probate court has been friendly to grandparents and eased their access to judgments. When you went to probate, did they speak of deFacto law? DeFracto law assumes that since you are caring for the children, you should have the custody and guardianship. The misconception about guardianship is that the parent can award guardianship to you or the guard can if the parent is unable. However, this does not remove the right of the parent to demand the guardianship be given back to them. BUT, once they have lost guardianship, the court should demand proof that they can care for the children. In your case, you have proof that you have provided a safe, secure and nurturing home for the children. The bio mom would have to prove that she could do so. Your lawyer would have to show the court reason to keep the children with you. There are many variables and each case is different. I just had a program for my grandparent group Wed night and a local lawyer who is also a grandparent, spoke about guardianship and stressed the case by case differences. The fact that you have had the children for six years is on your side. Also, the fact that mom has not been involved in the children's lives, nor supported them in any way is on your side. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of having a good family law attorney who can present your case. When we were fighting to get our gs out of an abusive situation with bio dad and whacko stepmom, the judge looked at our attornies and said: "give me the law so I can make the decision for you." btw, the attorney that spoke on Wed suggested finding out who the judge is assigned to your case and look up their record to see if they are friendly to the cause of grandparents raising grandchildren. Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further help. daisycompany2@yahoo.cm

I have a friend on Facebook who's a lawyer. He often posts that he "answered a question" on Avvo. Apparently, you can ask a question confidentially and give your state and some lawyers can give you a rough idea of what you need to do and can expect.

It's reputable - I've seen the CEO or some such big shot from Avvo commenting on various news shows.

Here's the link:

http://www.avvo.com/ask-a-lawyer

Forgot to mention - you can also search answers that have already been given. And it's free!

Most attorneys offer a free consultation . Every state is different. I'm told in order to losemy guardianship bios have to prove a substantial material change in my household. So even if they get straight and a home I would have to agree or they'd have to prove something changed to make my house bad for gc. Hard to do when they keep bringing me more grands.....

we have an attorney but he's a probate attorney. I'm beginning to think that we might want one in family law.

W not hurt to talk to one. Check state websites. Google grandparents raising grandchildren in California (I think you are in san Francisco?) you can also call bar association and ask for referral. We went through 10k of legal bills before I learned I could do searching on my own. Did you file under defacto law? Not sure if it is recognized in your state.

Get one that only does family law or that a great deal of their practice is family law....also that they have lots of experience representing gparents. An all around lawyer can practice family law but may not really be prepared to handle something as delicate & complicated as it gets when gparents are involved, or at least that is they way it is in Texas.

thanks to everyone for your replies. I will look into a family law attorney.

Daisy I sent you an email. Thanks for the contact info.

Gmomlisa, you are right in that each state has different laws, or the way that they are interpreted. However, guardianship can be challenged by the bio parents, unless they were declared unfit. Een then, if they can prove that they have recovered from whatever the law gives them the right to appeal. The best way to protect the children is to adopt them which may be tricky,, depending on the case. I agree that an attorney who specializes in family law is important. The judge can only rule on the case presented to him. Going Pro Se may lose the case as we don't know the law or how to present our case according to the law.

Hi daiseyduck. Oregon is unique in that if the juvenille courts give permanent guardianship to someone, the bio parents cannot reverse it unless it is proven that the guardians are unfit and that involves CPS.
Temporary guardianship or if done through probate can be reversed if bio parents show they are able to care for child and shown in best interest of child.
Permanent Guardianship is not decided on lightly and there are certain criteria that must be met before Juvenile court agrees and signs. 2 of those criteria I took straight from the law:
(2) The grounds for granting a permanent guardianship are the same as those for termination of parental rights.
(3) The court shall grant a permanent guardianship if it finds by clear and convincing evidence that:
(a) The grounds cited in the petition are true; and
(b) It is in the best interest of the ward that the parent never have physical custody of the ward but that other parental rights and duties should not be terminated.

So we have permanent custody and guardianship and can make all decisions. They still have a financial obligation to child and unless they want to allow us to adopt that will remain. Not that we get anything from bio mom. Dad does support though.

I am not familiar with any other state's laws so you could be correct in your thinking, but Oregon is different. If Oregon is the only state like this, I am certainly glad we live here!

The usage of "permanent" guardianship has been a continuing issue for grandparents raising grandchildren. I have written on and attended workshops on the issue and this is what I base my comments on. As I noted in my previous post, the parents must prove they are capable of raising the children. On your Utah website, it states: The natural parents rights remain in effect:
n Responsibility for financial support (child
support payments continue).
n Right to consent to adoption.
n Right to determine childs religion.
n Right to reasonable visitation.
Guardianship, temp or perm, means you have the legal right to make decisions for the child's welfare.
The only way you can have permanent custody of the child(ren) is to adopt them. The difference between guardianship and adoption is that parental rights are terminated in adoption.
The U.S. Constitution does not address the power of parental rights but traditionally, the courts have supported the biological parents rights over all others. No state has determined specifically what constitutes a fit or unfit parent. This being said the courts do uphold parental rights in most cases, over and above the best interest of the child as they believe the biological parents have the legal right to determine the rights of the child. Oregon is not unique. Wisconsin has a similar ruling. The difference between custody and guardianship is that under custody, you provide a safe and healthy environment for the child while under guardianship, you have the legal right to control their finances as well as provide for their needs. As I did note in my previous post the biological parents retain the right to contest the guardianship. They may not win, but they do have the rights. The use of the word permanent is to designate a permanency for the children, but does not mean it cannot be contested. I hope this helps to clarify.

I am Oregon not Utah. Was all you had there from their web site?

"Oregon has a permanent guardianship status that may only be granted by the juvenile court after it is proven that it is in the best interest of the child that the birth parent should never have physical custody of the child. A birth parent is prohibited from petitioning the court to terminate this permanent guardianship once it is granted."

I took that from http://adopting.adoption.com/child/guardianship-2.html because I could not find another Oregon site with the information. It does specify that under court documents though as law. Do you think it may be something changed in recent years?

I have a question for you about guardianship. Are there any rules about moving out of state? In your experience if the parents don't visit or contest, is it an issue?

Sorry about state confusion. I did check Oregon. I have been advocating and writing about grandparents raising grandchildren for over 10 years as well as experiencing a horrific battle to save our gs from an abusive home. I am on the State of Illinois Grandparents and other kin raising grandchildren task force and we her presentations on grandparent issues. I only say this because I do not pretend to know the law, just a bit on this subject. I think we are basically on the same page. Custody is a state issue but several federal laws have been written. You might check the Fostering Adoptions Act of 2008. It was written by two grandmothers who formed Grandfamilies of America and have done a great deal for grandparents. Much of what I am saying and what I have read on laws, the key issue is parental rights which is undergoing changes in many states. If I read Oregon law correctly, permanent guardianship can be challenged but it depends on parental rights. One thing I have learned is that you need a good family law attorney to present the law to the judge to make a decision in your favor. Each case has something different and only a lawyer can know the best way to proceed. There are several laws regarding crossing state lines in child custody cases. Interstate commerce is involved but I do not have details on that. I will say again that no one should bank on the term permanent guardianship. I am always interested in hearing other cases so thanks for sharing. btw, it sounds like you went through probate court which places different rules on decisions. That may make a decision. I know several grandmothers who have had good success with probabe but it is different from family courts. Hope all continues to go well with your case. Your gc is lucky to have you!

Thank you! I am actually meeting bio mom today. First time in a month that she has made a plan to see him. I am not sure if she is that detached or the fact she is trying to emotionally protect herself since she can't raise him causes these long lapses.