I have a problem believing that addition is "just like any other disease" for this reason...

at SOME point the addict CHOSE that first hit of what ever they call it... therefor STARTING the addiction and making it a CHOICE from day one.

It's true that they did choose to use that first time. On the other hand, I suspect they have a problem of some sort that they want to "medicate."

In other words, when I was a teenager a lot of my friends loved to drink and get drunk. I just never had the desire to "escape" reality, so I didn't indulge. To this day I love the taste of wine, but hate to get high. I wonder if that's the difference -- a desire to escape something in their lives...

My husband and I are trying to teach our kids the 12 steps now, hoping that they'll learn how to cope with life's problems without wanting to escape them.

Sara, you are right in that addiction is a form of mental illness. Many times it is which came first? Was the addict trying to self medicate with the abused substances? Or, did they abuse and then move on to mental illness diagnosis. Contrary to what most think, there are hundreds of mental health diagnosis but only the bi-polar, schizo, etc usually get mentioned. There are also diagnosed personality disorders, which I am sure most addicts would test positive for. As we have learned through research, the brain is far more complicated that we originally thought. Does this all make an excuse for Pinky or anyone else? Absolutely not. Should they be held responsible for their actions, or lack thereof? Actually, yes. However, it is a process that the addict, as well as their family and friends, must participate in, not to cure but to find a way to live with the addiction. The problem is that most parents do not want to give up on their children, even in adulthood, and why should they? They love that child and don't want to hurt them. Momma, you are right also in that it is just like any other disease and there lies the problem. We don't understand the behavior and wonder why they would make such choices. In some cases, they cannot control it, in others with really hard work, they can learn self discipline and possibly control it. My point in saying all of this is that families need to acknowledge the problem and not enable the addict. If you read the posts, many say they don't want to hurt the bio mother because they love her as she is their child. We certainly cannot criticize these grandmothers for loving their child! However, if we want to know how to deal with them, we need to acknowledge the problem as a disease (or condition), and that it is THEIR disease, not ours. That means we must practice tough love and stick with our decisions and that is also very hard to do. We don't know why they make the decisions they do, and most likely they do not either, but we must follow through. Come here and vent and understand each other and the woes you share, but the simple fact is that you must walk away emotionally from the addict. You are each doing everything you can to protect the grandchildren and protecting them from the parents may be the most important thing you can do. Do you blame the addict? Do you blame yourself as a parent? Do you blame the system? The answer is that there should be no blame. You have and are doing what you can. Don't give credibility to addict whether she is a mom or not.

VERY well said, Daisy!

And addicts are Olympic-class manipulators, too.

I just got off the phone with Pinky (probably as you were typing your post!!!). She was upset because she and Loverboy are fighting all the time. He cursed her out and threatened to hit her, and she texted him whining that she never curses at him, why does he do it to her? And she can't leave because she has nowhere to go, yada-yada.

Guess what: She "accidentally" sent it to my husband!!! HAHAHA! He called me and said he knows she did it on purpose, as well. "That doesn't phase me in the least," he said.

We have both gotten to that point. She ignored our advice as usual. She moved in with him. She can clean up her own mess.

someone once advised me to say: "I love you and I will feel very badly if you make a wrong choice but I cannot fix it".

If I had or carried a gene for a disease like MS or MD & knowingly conceived a child anyway, knowingly taking a big risk that the child would inherit the gene and become sick with the disease, I think I would feel guilty for passing that on to them. I look back at how young and naive' I was when I married my ex-husband. He had a drink in his hand the day I met him and a drink in his hand the day I left him. I didn't think much about the fact that he had an addiction. I definitely didn't recognize his narcissism or even know what that was. I was in love with his little toddler and fell into an "instant mommy" role. I didn't think twice about conceiving and bearing 2 of his children. I wanted to be a mommy so much & didn't think much beyond that. I was raised in a home with a dad who had a beer in his hand every day, so it just seemed normal to me. I didn't grow up with any problems drinking, so that issue of addiction never hit home with me until years later. Now, I look back & I really regret ever having married him; much less conceiving children with him and passing on his addiction genes to them. On top of that, I raised them in a home where they watched their father drown his worries or stress or sorrow, or whatever it was, in alcohol. They watched him drink day after day after day. They saw him falling down drunk. They heard his slurred speech. Back then, fear kept me there. Fear made me an enabler, much the same way fear has continued to keep me in an enabling state. I feared leaving him because that would mean him having unsupervised visits with me kids; so I stayed. Finally, he did something so terrible that staying was no longer an option so I took my kids and left, with no notice, leaving the lives we knew behind in a matter of hours. He committed a crime. He was charged with 4 very serious counts against another child. My daughter witnessed some of what he did. He filed to divorce me after I left him. The courts did what I had always feared. They gave him UNSUPERVISED visits with my children because he was ONLY accused; not convicted. He was ordered not to consume any alcohol while the kids visited. Of course, he was a full-blown alcoholic who knew he was facing a possible life sentence, so he couldn't stop drinking every other weekend for their visits. On one of the visits, he had my 11 yo daughter in his bed and started putting his hands on her. Only after getting her safely across state lines, back home, would she tell me what had happened. I called hotlines in both states and was finally able to get his visits with her stopped, but guess what???? He was still allowed visits with my then 14 yo son. The whole time he had him, he manipulated him and convinced him that the victim of his crime was a liar and that I was a terrible woman for not "standing by my man". He poisoned him against me in many ways and thus my problems with my son really began. He ended up going to prison after a lengthy 2 YEAR period. He plea bargained and got a 15 year sentence. What he did and him going to prison was horribly tramautic for both of them. They refused counseling and now I know I should've done more to MAKE THEM participate. Ultimately, they both turned to drugs, and here I am. So, I can't help but feel guilty for not making a better choice, for not considering the things I was passing on to my children; both genetically & environmentally. At the very least, I should have been more prepared in helping them manage the temptations. I should've been at home when I was at my boyfriend's house, even though they were plenty old enough to be left home alone (teens). There are SO many things I should have done differently. I realize, they made choices that were theirs to make, but I will always have regrets for the role I've played; for not considering the genetics or the environment.

Thank you all for your comments, I always learn from them. I know that my son, the addict started self medicating because as he says, "I am stressed and pills make me forget for a little while." This sounded very familiar as my husband used to say this about his alcohol use. Well, it progressed from pills to heroin and more. Like Momma I think they had a choice and made a bad one. I get really tired of hearing they have a disease and can't help the things they do. I am trying to teach my gc that, yes life is not fair sometimes and there will always be stress in your life but there are other ways to handle it without drugs or alcohol.

GMa, I was 19 when we married and pretty much ignorant on life. I would never have guessed that I w/be where I am today, but here I am. I think you are a strong person and have done the best you could. No one makes the right choices all the time but at least you have grown and doing the right thing now. It does not sound like addiction was your husband's problem but more that he was sick in the head. Unfortunately, the system has made some painfully wrong decisions and children usually suffer.

mynanny, accepting that an addict is ill does not mean excusing their behavior and many are mentally ill also. It is not like any other disease. I worked on a psych unit for six years and saw how mental illness and/or addiction tear a family apart. It is, in some ways, worse than a cancer. However, accepting what they are can allow you to walk away from them, emotionally and hopefully physically.

I think the biggest difference is this: When someone has cancer, diabetes, heart disease, it breaks our hearts. Usually, they're the same people they always were, and if their behavior changes it usually involves clinging, reminiscing, or complaining (about pain, treatment hassles, etc.). Also, these diseases tend to be temporary in nature, because either the person will get well again or pass away.

But when the disease is mental in nature, the victim can be a royal pain in the butt no matter how much we love them. Schizophrenics are unpredictable, sometimes violent. Alzheimer's patients do things that drive us up the wall. And addicts steal from us, leave their kids with us, and aggravate us to no end. At some point we need to protect ourselves from them. Sometimes it means housing them in a professional setting. But sometimes (in the case of addicts) it means distancing ourselves from them so that they can't continue to hurt us or other loved ones. Sad, but reality...

I agree with you Sara, and for the most part I have distanced myself from my son. I miss him, not the addict he has become but the son I used to have. But I know my job now is to protect his children. I still get so mad at him that he has put all of us in the situation where we have to choose them over him, but it is what it is. I pray for him everyday and still hope he can get his life together but I know I can no longer help him do that. He and the gc's mother are both in jail again for probation violation. As sad as it is to say, this is a good thing for us because our court hearing for custody comes up in a couple of weeks and CPS can now serve papers on them so the judge won't continue the case. Anyway, off topic, so thanks for listening and for all the great advice.

the question is: why did they take that first step into drugs? People don't become drug addicts just for the heck of it. They are trying to deal with a problem and use the drugs go ease the pain of dealing with a problem. When our kids were young, going to college for most also included joinging a soriety or fraternity where drinking was expected. The excuse was that college was so hard, they needed to let loose and not feel anything. Remember the 80's when John Belushi was the beloved stoned and drunk idol for teens and young adults? Saturday Night Live laughed at him and yet he and others from the show became drug addicts and died from overdose. These were metors to the bio parents of today. Today there are Mexican drug dealers crossing the borders in Arizona to approach school yards where they sell drugs to the kids for $1 (their lunch money). They sell a very potent form which makes the kids addicted after one use. I think what we are talking about here is tolerance. In my opinion, we cannot tolerate the addict as long as they are using and hurting others, especially their children. As I have raised my gs, I had a firm rule that no one under age drank at my house, no one was offered respite to "sleep it off" when he got older. During the teen years, we kept no alcohol in the house. Even if we trusted our gs, there was always the risk of friends coming in looking for alcohol. There are also no girls sleeping over. If someone had a problem, I offered to call their parents. I just felt I needed to take a stand and be the parent who would not tolerate this type of behavior. Society became way too tolerant in the 80's and 90's and now here we are picking up the pieces.As I have said previously, dealing the death and suffering with our daughter was hard, but I feel for those of you that have to deal with these issues daily. If you open the subject of diseases and how we react, that's an issue of its own. Our daughter was cancer free for 7 years and we though she was safe, until she got pregnant and the pregnancy hormones fed receptive cells in here brain and the cancer returned. During those seven years we dealt with damage that was caused by the radiation. Yes, Sara, we hugged and supported her but no one talks about the short term effects of radiation to the brain or the long term which can be deadly serious. We were blessed when she was saved with a "cure" of radiation and chemo but were not prepared for the side effects. She became bi-polar and sometimes suffered from paranoia. At one point she heard voices. It was heartbreaking to see this happen to a healthy, vibrant young woman. So don't look at the words of disease or addict, but rather what is happening to the person you love and want to protect. You know my book: Born Into Love, the unconditional love of grandparens raisiing grandchildren, shows this love that we give our gc. The contrast is how much unconditional love do we give to our children and do we enable them by doing so?

I've also heard that addicts react differently to alcohol than non-addicts do. In Al-Anon we were encouraged to go to an AA meeting to hear "their" side.

One of the speakers said that the first time he took a sip of beer (or whatever it was) it was as if he had an epiphany. It seemed as if the booze did something to him that we'll never understand. I sip wine, I only taste wine. It either tastes good or it doesn't -- but it certainly doesn't open up new worlds to me!! :-0

Maybe there's a wiring problem with addicts that we just don't understand yet...

daisyduck, I can't fathom what you went through watching your beloved daughter suffer & slip away from you like you did, and I commend you so much for doing everything possible to rescue your Grandson from his "father". Your wisdom inspires me and your support encourages me. Thanks for staying here with us, even though your GS isn't a child anymore. You are invaluable here. And Sara, your honest opinions keep me grounded sometimes. If we ladies could meet in person in a support group once a week, I think I'd walk away from each meeting feeling like a new woman. This board definitely still helps me, though, even if we're not face to face. I appreciate everyone here so much.

GMa, you humble me. Thank you for your kind words. btw, I am presenting working for our University as Program Coordinator for Grandparents Raising Grandchildren. We are having difficult getting grandparents to come to support meetings. We don't know whether it is the area or just things have changed. I do know that transportation is a problem for some, especially with gas prices rising. I am starting a phone conference group where grandmothers can call in to discuss. Do you think something like that might work here?

When someone dies from cancer its very sad and to watch them suffer heart wrenching, and to watch my beautiful daughter turn into a drug addict who will to anything for a fix, to go down that road with your child Sara is also heart breaking. To Daisy you are absolutely right tough love is the only way for an addict to GET IT, you have to detach yourself emotionally, and let me tell you doing that with my daughter was awful i started therapy and my therapist said i was grieving my daughter as i had known her. I thought my heart would break, for 7 months i stopped talking to her didn't even see her for christmas last year. She wanted to put my gs into a very dangerous situation with her an her ex-boyfriend, taking him to the beach in a stolen car, i never would have let my gs go with my daughter in a car with any friend of hers anyway. However the fact that she would risk hers sons well being to that extent, i couldn't have her around him anymore. So i decided that until she showed some serious signs of getting clean i would have to cut off contact with her. So after doing that and letting her see what life would be like with out her family she went through hell, lived in a car for a bit committed some crimes landed in jail for 2 months and then she decided to go to rehab. So now shes going to rehab, first to a 21 day rehab then in August to a 4 to 8 month rehab. They have to learn that suffer consequences for their actions, if you want to use your not coming to family functions and basically your on your own. My daughter is also bipolar, like Daisy said she was self medicating, and 50% of people that are bipolar become addicted to drug alcohol or both. It is our job not to enable them. We can help them to hit rock bottom by not enabling them and cutting them out of our lives if they keep choosing drugs instead of getting help. This is the hardest thing as a mother to watch your child live a life you wouldn't wish on anyone.