I passionately agree with everything EvaSophia has said. I do know the monkey experiment ... I have such a mother, and that image has haunted me my whole life.

I'm going to tell you something I learned about love and connection. When I was younger I happened to end up with a guru, though it was completely contrary to my interests and beliefs at the time. Once she pointed out that when you are in love, the joy and ecstasy that you feel don't come at you from the other person; they bubble up inside you, from your own heart. That joy you feel is your own love.

I stayed at her ashram for a while. I had a job there as a cashier at the little cafe. We were instructed to welcome with love all the people who came through our line to pay. One day I was very, very depressed. As I walked to my job I thought, "How can I welcome anyone with love when I feel like dying?" I sat on the stool at my register and it occurred to me how awful it would be if anyone else felt as bad as I did, so I tried to look into each person's eyes and give them love so no one else would feel that way. Drawing that love from my own heart to give to others brought me happiness.

This happened because I was in that very special setting. I haven't been able to apply it in day to day life, or perhaps I haven't tried hard enough. But the point I want to make is, with a heart like yours you will never be without love - there is an ocean of love right inside your own heart. What you need other people for is to draw it to the surface.

Dear EvaSophia, I must admit that there are moments when I believe in the optimism that you and others have expressed . . . maybe it's rubbing off on me. I hope so. And I cannot begin to say how much your kind words mean. Alive. That is the crux of it. What is the meaning of that? When are we alive, and when are we simply existing, passing from one moment to the next without purpose? I want to be alive again, to be ravenous for the promise of tomorrow. But tomorrow just seems empty without human connection, without something bigger than a solitary soul. What separates us from our animal cousins? Really? It is the attachment that we are capable of - the complex understanding and the ability to love on an intellectual level. To me, that's being alive. Connecting right down there in the core . . . I know, silly romanticism. I can't help it. No matter how depressed I get I have to believe there is something intrinsically beautiful about the creatures that we are. Thank you again. :-) It does make it a lot harder to feel like sh*t when people are being really nice to you.

OK. Just saw your message DonnaWanda. I'm just gonna say you guys are killing me in a really nice way. I really want to tell you all I love you for it. I would feel a hell of a lot worse right now except for your thoughtfulness and kindness. I am so glad I found my way here, and so grateful for you all. I would take some issue with your guru though. I think the joy of love is flowing in both directions - each person becomes more fulfilled because of the joy of the other. When two people truly love one another it is like a fire and the flames feed on one another.

"Drawing that love from my own heart to give to others brought me happiness. " That might be the only true happiness. :-) "But the point I want to make is, with a heart like yours you will never be without love - there is an ocean of love right inside your own heart." That's like one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me, and you know now that I'm just going to be like a kitten outside your window begging for milk . . . It's also one of the first nights in a long time when I'm glad to be alive.

Donna -- Thank you, and I just want to say I completely agree with what you have said as well.

Nocturne,

First, there is nothing silly about romanticism. I think it's beautiful and it takes a lot of courage. But it also HURTS sometimes and there is no getting away from that. I am reminded of a quote by CS Lewis:

"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable."

You have chosen the path of being a vulnerable, "silly" romantic. Good for you! But to love is to risk being hurt. That's precisely why is takes courage to love.

I'm also reminded of some things I've read in my psychology books, things you probably already know but I want to remind you anyway.

For example, from the book "Learned Optimism" by Martin Selig (which is really more about learned helplessness IMO but that title probably wouldn't sell as many books). He talks about inner dialogue being a key difference between feeling helpless and optimistic, especially in light of three things -- permanence, pervasiveness, and personalization. Helpless people think every bad thing that happens is permanent, pervasive, and their own fault.

Don't you think this describes at least partly what is going on with you right now? You lost a big love, and that HURTS, and I'm guessing that also triggered some feelings of worthlessness you've had ever since you were abused.

You lost a love, but that is NOT permanent. You can find love again. It is not pervasive, because one person left you - not every single human on the planet. And I don't know the exact circumstances, but I doubt very much that what happened was all your fault.

I'm just saying, please try to look at the big picture and not just focus on this one painful event as though it must *always* be this way, with everyone you meet. You are a smart guy and you can fight this with your mind until your heart finally heals enough to try again.

Hi EvaSophia. I can't rationally argue with anything you said. And the Lewis quote is beautiful; I wasn't aware of it. But my heart is such a stubborn thing. Normal logic says there are many matches for a human being, and I hold to that for the most part. There are many people that we can love. But I also believe - contrary to everything my brain tells me - in serendipity. In magic and in angels. Of certain human beings being able to touch us in a way that is incredibly rare and special. You are also very right about the feelings of worthlessness I carry. Severe emotional pain takes me back there. You also remind me of Albert Ellis' "musterbation." Thank you for your wisdom; you would make a good therapist. I'm having a really bad day today, but your words help. And there is a whole thing about inner dialogue that's related to the mess I'm in, so it is really appropriate too. I'm sending warm fuzzy thoughts in your general direction. Take care. :-)

Nocturne,

You know, after I wrote that reply I thought -- the one drawback of being a romantic is that it can lead us to idealize love, or the loved one, too much. Then I see you writing about wanting to believe in magic and angels...but I get it, and I relate.

I want to believe in those things, too, and I hate it when people say things like life is only the concrete things we see around us, only science and hard work and disappointment and death. I think a lot of the pain in life comes from that seemingly-huge gap between what we WANT life to be, and the harshness of what life sometimes is. If that makes any sense.

That's one reason I love nature so much; it bridges the gap between those two worlds. It fills me with awe and a feeling of magic.

It's tough to be a romantic in this world, without feeling crushed every time a dream turns to dust. But we have to find some way to make it work, to walk the line between believing in magic and angels and deep, profound love, and existing in a real world that can be disappointing and occasionally downright cruel.

I don't have an answer for you as I am struggling with some of the same things. But I do think it's a dream worth fighting for.

I also just want to say that I think there is an important distinction between believing in love, and believing that you can't be a worthwhile person unless somebody currently loves you. Of course it's natural to want to be loved, we all want that. But if we're asking the person we love to validate us by loving us back, I think that is an unfair burden to put on them. We have to be OK on our own first.

Anyway, I hope that all made some sense and you feel better soon. You have so much going for you and so much to give, and you deserve another chance.

Dear EvaSophia,

It made wonderful sense. Every time you write you reveal a beautiful and sensitive mind. I think in part that is why I find comfort in your words. I wish that I were not so tired; you broach a subject I would love to discuss. It's plain that you have walked these paths in your mind before, and you put it so well about walking the line between magic and love and the real world. There is a distinction for me, though. I don't need validation I don't believe. That's not what it is for me. Instead, I see this world as making me sick. Extremely sick. Baba Ram Dass once told a story about a guru who could not eat food which was not cooked with love - he would become violently ill if he did. I'm no guru, but this place is making me ill. The cruelty, the insanity of humans, the narcissism and the selfishness. And the loneliness. I love nature so very much. I love my dog like most people love their two legged children. I have a back-up trowel for my primary cat-hole trowel. But it's not enough anymore. I'm really scared. Right in this very moment. Because I don't think I'm going to make it. And the truth of it is, that's probably one of the hardest parts for me because I love human beings so very much. At least, I love what we can be. I love the potential that lies within us. I love the human soul and creativity and beauty. I even love God, although I cannot quite understand how this world is the way it is. I don't want to die. I just don't see an alternative other than to live in pain. I don't think I can get back to OK again. I'm just so worn down.

Again, all I can say is please hang on because this feeling is NOT permanent. This awful feeling will not last forever and I think your brain knows that even if your heart does not.

Maybe I've never been in as dark a place as where you are now, but I have seen some very bad times...times when I felt like I was drowning, and the world had turned into a very surreal place that I couldn't relate to anymore.

When this happens, the way I get through it is to latch onto ANYTHING that helps me grounded. Anything that helps me feel a little bit better, even for a moment. My cats, connecting with someone online, calling a crisis hotline, a favorite movie or TV show or book, visiting a favorite place -- anything that brings me a moment of respite. I think of this like grabbing onto branches and driftwood in a raging river. I can hang onto one branch for a little while, then when it's not really helping me anymore I find another branch to grab onto and then another and another. In this way, I don't drown and eventually enough time passes that the worst of the crisis is over and I'm not drowning anymore.

I really believe that you just need some *time* so please give yourself that. Because yes, there is much ugliness and cruelty in this world, but there is also kindness and beauty. Please give yourself a chance to re-discover that.

And again, the fact that you are in pain means you are still very much alive, and the fact that you are scared means that some part of you still has a healthy survival instinct. That's a good thing.

Now, since you liked the last quote I gave, I want to give you some more of my favorite quotes:

The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something. That's the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only one thing for it then to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting. Learning is the only thing for you. Look what a lot of things there are to learn.
-- T.H. White, The Once and Future King


We acquire the strength we have overcome -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any. -- Alice Walker

Keep your faith in all beautiful things, in the sun when it is hidden, in the spring when it is gone. -- Roy R. Gilson

Courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying: I will try again tomorrow. -- Doyle Brunson

I think of grass -- you know every two weeks a chap comes out with a lawnmower and cuts it down. Suppose the grass were to say, "Well for Pete's sake, what's the use?" -- Joseph Campbell

If you have a dream, give it a chance to happen. -- Richard DeVos

To be worn out is to be renewed -- Lao-tzu

I'm numbing my brain at the moment, but the lucid part of it - and probably the not so lucid part as well - is grateful EvaSophia. It sounds like you've been there. It sounds like you know it well. I know you are right. I think that's what I'm trying to do. Trying to buy time. And after reading your T H White quote I might add maybe I'll learn something to. My brain may be too slow at this point to learn, but maybe some of the kindness will sink in on an emotional level. Rationality just goes straight out the window with depression doesn't it? It's useless. It's all scars, numbing of the heart, doubt, and the life draining exhaustion . . . But I guess even the heart has some intellect, because I know that you are right when you say that dreams and life are worth fighting for. I know it when I hear it, if I can only hold on to the thought . . . I love your quotes. I'll trade you one back, "This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." Horace Walpole Or one from this daffy chap:

This Life

This life could be different, I know that it could;
The chains here that bind me seem heavy and strong,
But keys open locks, and saws cut forged steel,
So I'll keep my eyes open and see freedom erelong.

What is one's own life but a heart anyway?
And existence as fragile as thin papier-mache...

This heart could be happy, I know that it could;
The pain that keeps coming does weigh it down so,
But some other hearts lift it and help it to grow,
Sweet souls I have found - and the love they bestow.

What is one's own heart but a soul anyway?
And existence as fragile as thin papier-mache...

This soul could be soaring, I know that it could;
It's not tied to this earth like the trees of the wood,
It flew once before all the way to high heaven,
If it was it can be, in all likelihood.

What is one's own soul but God's hand anyway?
And existence as fragile as thin papier-mache...

God's hand shouldn't cry, I know that it shouldn't;
But tears here deluge me, and the rain never ends,
For growth water is needed, but light needed more,
Sunlight, and moonlight - for ascension impends.

What are souls but wishes living in dreams?
This life the illusion, this life the elaborate lie -
We can all be bright angels, sharing our love,
We can all reach the heavens, learning to fly.

Morning approaches, the moon's glow fades fast,
As the sand in our hourglasses trickles away.
Reach deep in your heart, grab fast to your dream -
Find your true path before the harsh light of day.

It's here for the taking, and for flying away...

WJ

Nocturne, I just want to let you know that you are not alone. I feel exactly like you do! No, I know that is of no help. I can't help anyone when I can't help myself. Sorry you are going thru everything you are going thru. My life is beyond miserable to. No meds are working for me, no therapy (and I've been thru a lot of therapist). My family, including my kids, have abandoned me.

Nocturne,

I hope you are still hanging in there, hanging onto those good thoughts, remembering that your life has value and meaning and potential. You have friends here, including me. Please don't forget that.

Wow, thank you so much for the poem. It's very beautiful and I've never heard it before. It makes my heart ache, in a good way.

The quote from TH White has helped me through a lot of hard times, so I'm glad you liked it. Just keep taking care of yourself, doing whatever you need to do to buy yourself more time, and I really believe the worst will be over before too long. We both know there are no quick fixes, but you can find moments of peace and beauty, maybe even love and contentment, and as time goes by and you get stronger, those moments will come more and more frequently.

Years ago I knew a young man who went into a severe depression. At his worst, he could barely string two coherent sentences together -- and he was highly intelligent. So even though your brain isn't at full strength right now, I think you are doing better than you realize. Because you are expressing yourself extremely well.

Since you showed me a beautiful poem, I want to reciprocate with another poem that you probably already know, but it can never be read too many times in my opinion:

Invictus:

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

Darcyld, I think that does help. I think reaching out to someone else always helps on some level. And I'm so sorry for the emotional tsunami you are going through as well. I read your story and can only imagine how hard it is for you. Thank you so much, and I hope things soon take a turn for the better for you too.

EvaSophia, thank you for all your encouragement. I hope you are doing well too. And I'm trying to hold on. I keep coming back to your words. And they help. One thing might have saved my life. You reminded me that despite the risk of having an open heart, it is the way life was meant to be lived. At least for some of us; I know it's true for me. You worry me with your story today though - the young man, did he ever find peace again?? Had a doctor's appointment today. Am going to try a new medication. After the last ones, I'm not so eager but I know I need something. And I learned I have a parasite living in me! Yeah, I continue to turn into some kind of Frankenstein's monster. It's really gross, and I need drugs for them too. I loved "Invictus" - but while it is inspirational, I'm not convinced . . . I'm not even sure if I believe in free will any longer. I'm not sure if everything we now do wasn't determined in the instant of the big bang. Maybe we are nothing more than automatons, blindly running our assigned lives. And life and death is decided by some cosmic clockwork, gears and springs all hidden behind the veil . . . And I cheated you on the poem, it is very unlikely you could have read it before. The daffy chap who wrote it was me. But I'm so glad you liked it. It seemed appropriate to the conversation, to the narrative. Hope is everything when you are suicidal, it seems . . . And I have made made it through January 9th, 2015. Farther than I thought I would, Thank you, no matter how the story ends, thank you. I have valued these words so much. You and the others here have nearly convinced me there is a reason to hang on. That there might be some purpose under heaven left for me . . . I wish that I could hold on to the thought, at least for a time.

I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but a friend on the PTSD board just introduced me to Jeff Brown, who has a Facebook page and a website. She posted this quote from him on the PTSD board:

I know we often want it all happy and positive, but that's just not where much of humanity is. Many of us are overwhelmed with pain, undigested sadness, unexpressed anger, unseen truths. This is where we are at, as a collective. So we have two choices. We can continue to pretend it's not there, shame and shun it in ourselves and others, distract and detach whenever possible. Or we can face it heart-on, own it within ourselves, look for it in others with compassion, create a culture that is focused on authenticity and healthy emotional release. If we continue to push it all down, we are both creating illness and delaying our collective expansion. But if we can just own the shadow, express it, release it, love each other through it, we can finally graduate from the School of Heart Knocks and begin to enjoy this magnificent life as we were intended. Pretending the pain isn't there just embeds it further. Let's illuminate it instead.

I am reading books about hypnotic regressions to the time before birth, when our souls choose their challenges for the life ahead. it might sound crazy .., perhaps it ought to, but to me it doesn't. I feel I can endure almost anything if I can just find meaning in it.

Hi Nocturne,

If you wrote that lovely poem than you are a very gifted writer. One more reason you should stick around.

Yes, that young man is still here and doing well. The event that triggered his depression was being fired from his job because he was accused of something he didn't do by a coworker. I'm not going to say he is always happy or has a perfect life, but he worked through his depression, found another job that he enjoys and is good at, and has re-built his life. As far as I can tell, he seems pretty happy most of the time.

You can re-build your life, too, but you need time. As John Lennon once said, whatever gets you through the night. I hope this new medication helps.

You scare me a little when you talk about having parasites and turning into Frankenstein. A Frankenstein could never have written that beautiful poem. I have to believe that is the depression talking.

On the whole theme of this being the way life was meant to be lived, the person who really helped me to make my peace with that is Joseph Campbell. Reading his books and watching The Power of Myth and Mythos series. He talks again and again of how the world is made up of pairs of opposites. Life and death, light and darkness, joy and pain. All these opposites cannot exist without each other. This helps me to see that darkness and pain are necessary parts of the world.

Here are a couple of quotes from him on this theme:

"'All life is sorrowful is the first Buddhist saying, and so it is. It wouldnt be life if there werent temporality involved, which is sorrow loss, loss, loss. Youve got to say yes to life and see it as magnificent this way; for this is surely the way God intended it

It is joyful just as it is. I dont believe there was anybody who intended it, but this is the way it is. James Joyce has a memorable line: History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake. And the way to wake from it is not to be afraid, and to recognize that all of this, as it is, is a manifestation of the horrendous power that is of all creation. The ends of things are always painful. But pain is part of there being a world at all

I will participate in the game. It is a wonderful, wonderful opera except that it hurts.

And this one:

"Affirmation is difficult. We always affirm with conditions. I affirm the world on condition that it gets to be the way Santa Claus told me it ought to be. But affirming it the way it is that's the hard thing."

Take care of yourself and hang in there. I believe you can get through this.

My plan is foiled. I had told myself I would have no emotion today; I would be a cold, unthinking creature performing some imitation of life and making some decision. Of course, the emotion truly never leaves, it just slinks around in all those hidden recesses of the mind. And I find myself near the computer, and by some convenience left the page up to here . . . Then I read the words and I am reminded of what seems to be both my reason for leaving and for staying. As beautiful as this universe can be, there is nothing that can rival the human capacity for curiosity, understanding, compassion and for love. To see a human being authentically striving to understand themselves and the world and reaching out according to their nature and proclivities to help others along the journey. I have missed talking so . . . I miss the emotion, the broader emotion, that I try to suppress every day. So I thank you both - Donna and Eva - for your beautiful and thoughtful words. I thought the Jeff Brown quote was amazing, and very true. I'm actually hoping to go through these messages so I can save some of these wonderful words of wisdom in a file on my 'puter. I keep trying to remember them these last few days . . . And the hypnotic regression doesn't sound crazy to me, but I'm probably a terrible judge right now. I completely down with the meaning thing - I agree anything becomes so much easier to bear if there is meaning and purpose for it. I cannot find meaning in a solitary life, though. To me that's like a prison without walls. And Eva I'm very glad the young man survived. I am trying to screw up the courage to run to town and the pharmacy. May need the last of the bourbon! Never thought I would have trouble leaving my house. But I need the pills. Literally have parasites. Gross, long, parasites. If I was a horse, someone else would solve my dilemma! Then again, probably not. I'd probably just be sent a vet with PopEye like arms to stick giant de-worming pills up my arse. And I love Joseph Campbell so. :-) It's been too much for me for too long, but I embrace the pain for one reason - you can only know joy to the extent you have known pain. You can only know love to the extent you have known its absence. The James Joyce quotes almost brought me to tears (OK they did actually, as did the Jeff Brown passage which kind of expressed the same idea of embracing the pain and living authentically), and these days that seems to be an indication that I love a thing. Usually they fall now as a result of a memory. I treasure those words as I would friends . . .