Codependency Support Group

Codependency is defined as someone who exhibits too much, and often inappropriate, caring for another person's struggles. A codependent person may try to change, or feel shame about their most private thoughts and feelings if they conflict with the other person's struggles. If you are on a journey towards self-love, this support group is for you. Join us and find others...

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chronicheadache 03/20/2020

So I’ve been thinking a lot about this respect thing and what it comes down to is that my relationship isn’t the typical codependent/narcissist dance. He is not a narcissist and I’m not a loyal innocent victim. If anything, he risk and lost a lot in terms to defend my honour so to speak. He spoke up for me and he lost a lot because of that. I never asked him to. Me being the chicken that I am, I prefer to whine at home and suck it up elsewhere. I know that drove him crazy, that I wouldn’t stand up for myself or him or speak out against the corruption going on. I just bottled my resentment and did what was told.

The incident that I don’t want to go into details about was basically him telling me he felt betrayed by me and that I didn’t care about him. I think he also felt like I was putting other things, like my job and my family, before him. Also, I misjudged our values and thought he would be okay with me doing things like seeing male strippers and he wasn’t. He felt very disrespected by that and I was completely shocked (that was not the incident by the way, but it did play a part.). I apologize and will never do that again and we resolved that but I wanted to show that clearly I had/have no idea what constitute disrespect.

All this to say, maybe he disrespects me now because he felt disrespected by me in the past. I think one huge reason I’m having trouble leaving is that I feel the relationship falling apart was due to me not respecting him. How stupid was I not realize that seeing strippers was disrespectful? And why can’t I stand up and say how I really feel? So maybe deep down inside, without realizing it, I thought I could fix my codependency and gain self-respect, I could show him that I can stand up for us and not do disrespectful things again.

that’s not working. It’s like the harder I try, the more I get it wrong and further from respect I get, and he ... I know he’s not happy, and I feel that it’s not just an unhappiness that comes from being displeased, but a deeper unhappiness from not longer being able to trust that I have his back, and that kills me.

I know the way he’s been treating me lately isn’t acceptable and I AM furious with it. First time in my life I am furious with him. Not that I tell him of course but I am furious. But I also feel like I haven’t shown him love and respect either. He did bring up marriage in the past and I told him I didn’t believe in marriage and love. I was crazy about him but I was scornful of the idea of love because I was trying to be edgy or some stupid crap like that.

This isn’t a story of an innocent codependent lady who wanted love from a narcissist man who wouldn’t give it to her. It’s way more complicated than that.

I know in the end it doesn’t matter how much to blame I am for this. Letting myself be disrespected isn’t going to right my past wrongs.

I just wish I told I loved him at a time when it would have mattered.

Well, here’s to learning what respect is for my own sake. Even if this relationship is an omelette that can’t be unscrambled, it’ll be good for me to learn how to have some principles and stick by them. Being a people pleaser, I cared more about seeking other people’s approval, and would throw away principles if that would mean I could get compliments and attention. I always did thing things to not rock the boat, to keep everyone happy. Maybe that’s why making myself happy doesn’t feel all that great. Going for massages, treating myself to food, having friends spoil me, they’re great but at the end of the day they don’t make me feel respected. I think I realized that giving myself respect isn’t always going to make me feel happy - that sometimes standing by my principles means I’ll lose opportunities and lose people and be seen as a bitch or a wet blanket, but at least I’ll be able to say I stood for something.

Mind you, I’m always terrified of standing for the wrong thing. I’ve done that before. Lavender80 is right - I don’t trust myself. Maybe I’ll start there, working on trusting myself, and the principles and respect will come easier.

Louise411 03/20/2020

Hey I just wanted to say, your not alone. Figuring out boundaries in relationship is tough for me too. It is for a lot of people. I think when you get into a pattern in a relationship for a long time and then you realize something isn't working and you try to fix that it can feel like things are worse than they were before. Hind sight is 2020 they say. The most important thing i feel though that i try to remember in regards to my relationship, and maybe it'll be of help to you is to try trusting that no matter what things will work out. Sometimes they dont work out the way you want them to. If you are focused on yourself for the right reasons (aka not wanting to have an unhealthy relationship in the future or presently and genuinely wanting to feel fix your relationship with yourself ) you will get to where you want to be. Dont give up on yourself is all it takes I think. I heard someone talk about relationships like this last week and it really helped --- she said if you want to end a toxic relationship or unhealthy attachment with someone but dont know what to instead of thinking about leaving the relationship or trying to fix the relationship try to fix the unhealthy relationship with yourself. If you can manage to feel better despite how other people are acting, than know matter what happens around you... you will be at peace. You will also be closer to the kind of relationship you want. Anyways my thoughts are with you! :) <3

urbangardener 03/21/2020

I've never seen you as merely the innocent so called codependent woman and him as the terrible, toxic narcissist. This dumbs it down to something that almost nothing ever is. All humans have complex sides, complex emotions. It is never just one person who is the only problem in a relationship. I do believe that if we were more emotionally mature ourselves, we would not be attracted to some of the people we have been. saying it another way, someone with healthier emotions, boundaries, behaviors, self loving thoughts, would not have picked any of my ex's. LOL! Sometimes relationships fail because people change. Sometimes they are not meant to be long term or forever. It is very hard work keeping a good relationship going and it takes two people to do this hard work. There is a myth that relationships should be easy and I guess some are. Sometimes we stay with the current person because it is easier than leaving, or so we think. Sometimes we have good reasons to stay. Sometimes it takes a while to decide, or reason out, why we might stay or why we might leave. When I was very distressed at coming to my decision to end my very long former marriage, my friend said something wise to me. I would wake up the next morning after one of the ex's crazy nights, knowing I had to initiate the divorce but lacking courage or just not wanting to face reality. My thoughts were divorce was going to be so bad - for me, for my kids, etc. So my friend heard my anguish and said to me, "Maybe God doesn't want you to divorce but until you divorce, the next step he has for you can't unfold." And while I don't believe in God controlling us, what she meant was I had to do the hard thing now to get to a better place in my life. And she was totally right. I look back and I am so grateful not to be married to this man any longer. Even if he did parental alienation on me and forced my kids and all the relatives to choose him over me. I just had to take that first step and get out of the bad relationship and then I had to take the second step and carefully, lovingly to myself, examine my own behaviors and how things unfolded in that marriage. Not saying I had to give myself a pass, rather I had to take ownership, or responsibility, for my own thoughts and actions that led me to where I was at that time. I had to lovingly learn and grow and find better for me so I could choose a better partner next time. That is where I am coming from with anything I say to you. I hope you can lovingly learn and grow and find better for yourself, if this is your choice.

chronicheadache 03/21/2020

urbangardener - I know you never saw me as innocent and him as narcissistic! You're one of the most nuanced people I know. What I love about your comments, with me and with others, is that you never played it as the other person was wholly to blame. Other people jumped to them being controlling, abusive, etc. but you always made it clear that you only know one side of the story and there are many sides.

This post wasn't a reaction to anything you wrote. Maybe it in way. I wrote an earlier post called "How do you respect yourself?" which was influenced by you when you told me that I hoped respected myself, and then i realized I had no idea what respect meant. So I kept thinking about respect, wrote that post, and kept thinking more about the role of respect in my relationship and this came out. It made me realize that I lacked a lot of respect in many ways, and I need to work on that. I have a lot to learn about respect is, but I'm getting better ideas, and I thank you so much for telling me that, because it helped me realize how important it is for me to respect myself, and also to see where I didn't respected him. This relationship may fail (most likely) but respect is a good lesson to learn regardless.

As for the codependent/narcissistic thing, that came about because 99% of the YouTube videos out there on codependency is about codependents staying with narcissists. It drives me crazy because it makes it sounds like 40% of the population are narcissists. One thing I love about Matt Kahn is when he said, "they can't all be narcissists." It's such a trendy word to throw out in the recovery community now - narcissist. Everyone who makes your life difficult is a narcissist apparently. No, my partner isn't a narcissist and I'm not some love-starved codependent who spent the entire relationship trying to get him to love me. And I know you never saw that. Thank-you for always showing nuance and understanding that people are more complicated than that, and that everyone needs to take ownership for themselves.

I do have more say in regards to what you wrote but I'm being called and have to run.

finallyawakenow 03/21/2020

I also didn’t put a label on you or your relationship. Glad that was discussed. My wife and I are closest friends and care deeply about each other yet we may not be good for each other. We are experimenting with the most loving separation in history. Definitely not typical. Yet some of my behavior is straight out of the coda books. Hers too but that’s for her to sort ou.t. The openness that we share now has allowed us to mature in ourselves. And releasing attachment of expectation is something we should have done years ago. She’s right with you on love and marriage. The idea is off putting to her. After all these years she can admit that. The great thing is that I know her enough to get it and not take it personally. We will very likely live together in the future and I said I would be fine with a divorce but at this point in our freedom it doesn’t matter anymore. Plus we’re two Libra's so a decision that big will take a while.
But about respect. You have gotten me thinking about this. I have always lumped self esteem and respect together. And ,since I started recovery, threw self love in too. But that’s not what is happening with me when I look closely. The self love is growing as I continue to accept myself as a being worthy of that. This is allowing self esteem to emerge as the positive energy from loving myself is guiding me to esteemable thoughts and actions. Becoming a healthier person. This should give me self respect automatically but I am finding that it’s more fluid than a set value. It is always changing. Hour by hour or day. It’s when I am actively living my life that I ‘give’ myself respect. When I slack then ‘it’ does too. This may be me with being hard on myself and having a fragile sense of worth.
If you will indulge me a little longer.... I would have no problem if my SO went to a strip club. In fact I would get a kick out of it. I have gone once and it isn’t me. However as much as I’m attracted to my partner (and I mean she really does it for me) I can’t help but notice a beautiful woman. Example: my yoga instructor is where Greek goddess mythology was born. The thing is that I can look at her but not in a coveting way. I don’t picture her in my mind. That would be disrespectful to her, my wife and myself. At least that’s how I feel. It’s just a random thing in the moment that I can’t help. Like OMG! And then do the class seeing her as a teacher not an object.
Thanks for opening these thoughts. They’ve been vaguely swirling around in my head for some time but your posts have given them some firmness.

chronicheadache 03/22/2020

Louise- Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Things have been a little crazy here with the coronavirus shutdown. Thanks so much for your reply! I totally agree with you that fixing the relationship with myself should be top-priority. I did put my relationship with my partner on the backburner for a couple of months to concentrate on myself and it has definitely helped.

finallyawakenow - oh dude, sorry if you thought I was saying you were putting a label on my relationship. Totally wasn't thinking that. It really is from like 99% of codependency YouTube videos out there being about how codependents always end up with narcissists. I'm exaggerating of course, but they do throw the word narcissists way too often in my opinion. I'm glad to hear that your wife is your best friend, and yes, I totally understand that that doesn't always mean things work out. Life is way more complicated than "codependent/narcissists dance" and "best friends makes the best partners". I REALLY appreciate what you wrote about respect and noticing vs. coveting another person. It gave me a lot to think about, on how to be respectful, which is cool :)

Urbangardener - I totally agree with you when you say if we were more emotionally mature ourselves, we would not be attracted to some of the people we have been! I see now I had chances to be great guys who would have treasured me but I was too immature to appreciate that, and in many ways, my partner was that great guy who treasured me more in the past but I guess I saw relationships as a game and didn't take it seriously. This post really is me maturing, looking back at where I was flighty, not taking things seriously, and not understanding respect because I was about was seeking approval and compliments but not developing a strong core sense of self.

What you wrote about your decision to divorce REALLY spoke to me, especially when your friend said, "Maybe God doesn't want you to divorce but until you divorce, the next step he has for you can't unfold." I'm beginning to understand that I may have to leave him to develop that strong core sense of self, of having values and beliefs that I can stick to, of not letting people walk over me, of not getting anxious that I don't make people happy all the time. And it's not because he's an awful guy, and I still feel guilty about how I didn't let go of that fear of commitment and took this relationship more serious when he was crazy about me and maybe we could have worked it out better... but like you said, people change, and I'm ready now to be serious, and he's not seeing me at all anymore (and maybe he never did). I do want to find better for me. I wish I could take him on that road to better with me, but if he's not willing to come, I can't stay here behind with him.

Thanks so much for what you wrote. It really did speak to me.

finallyawakenow 03/22/2020

Lol. No sorrys. The thinking I thought you thought thinking is silly:)
I was only fumbling at reassuring you that you don’t come across any way but as an individual. Who am I to put a label on anyone?
Keep up the learning curve! I love discovery. Seriously, I walk a lot and do my best thinking/healing that way. Your posts have given me a chance to get closer to my ‘big picture’

urbangardener 03/28/2020

When you write this stuff, you go deep and I personally find it helpful. And all the responses are really helpful also. I have been staying away from a lot of social media because of the uptick of virus cases and the stress where I live so I have not looked at DS much. My husband and I had a week solid of arguments. I feel like I can't allow him to be disrespectful to me, so I argue back. He wants to be heard but he is also disrespectful automatically out of his emotional issues or needs, which makes me angry. It is really no win. I tell him and he then claims he will change, but he doesn't change. This is where I am detaching with love. But I have needs to be respected, my first husband did not respect me or anyone else for that matter. You give me food for thought, as did other responses. It is my issue how I react and his issue how thoughtless his words are. I don't know how to detach and stop caring what comes out of his mouth while still keeping a good marriage going. And to agree with what you said first off, it is not just one abusive partner and one victim - it is deeper and broader and humans being humans. I tend to think it isn't possible to keep/have a relationship full of trust and love when one person is demeaning, disrespectful or overly self-centered. And this man is my true love and I want him to respect me. Maybe I am wanting him to be something he can't be at this time. Maybe it is my expectations or wants from my partner that they can't fulfill. Maybe having my own self respect is more important? Work in progress here. If you have any thoughts on this, I welcome them!

chronicheadache 03/28/2020

Urbangardener, I'm sorry to hear about the week of arguments. I wonder if it's brought upon by the stress of the lockdown and virus. I know I've been super agitated and on edge for the last few weeks. Hopefully it'll pass when this is all over.

Sadly, I feel like I can't provide any advice based on relationship experience since I can't even get to a point of talking about my partner's behaviour with him, but I am teacher and have been very slowly learning the art of classroom management which might be useful here. (It's a good thing my students appreciated my enthusiasm for academics and bringing cakes for their birthdays because I'm TERRIBLE at classroom management - though getting better at it!) Michael Linsen who's my classroom management guru teaches it in a way that reminds me of detaching with love. He says it's important that teachers do not take misbehaviors personally but that we always enforce a consequence. I suck at both - I hate enforcing consequences and I take every misbehaviour personally. But I do notice when I'm able to not be upset when my student misbehave, and enforce the consequence without any emotions, things go a lot better. He talks about how important it is not to let misbehaviour go, especially disrespect, but at the same time, to not let it get under our skin.

Clearly, I haven't gotten there yet, but I've been doing some thinking about what I will do the next time my partner is disrespectful to me. I've read somewhere that a good consequence when a partner is disrespectful is to walk away, and that's really the only consequence I can see myself having the courage to enact. I hope. Not hide from him, like I usually do, but I hope I have the courage the next time he stonewalls me or reacts in a rude way when I want to talk to him, I hope I have the courage to say to him, "I love you, but I don't like being treated like this. I'm going to my mom's house. When you're ready to treat me with respect, send me a text and I'll come back and we can work this out." And then I pack some clothes and go to my mom's. If he never texts, I know for sure the relationship is gone.

I'm realizing that I shouldn't let my students or my partner disrespect me, and that there is a way to stand up for one's self without having to be upset or take things personally. Michael Linsen talked about how teachers should be like referees - they don't take it personally when the players break a rule but they still enforce the consequences. Maybe we can apply a similar principle to relationships - we work on not taking how they treat us personally (tall order I know!) but at the same time we always enforce some kind of consequence.

So maybe you learn to drop expectations of what you want him to fulfill so you don't his actions personally, but at the same time you always address it when he's being disrespectful. Oh, and Michael Linsen also talks about how consequences should be in a way where the responsibility is put on the student to come back, so instead of demanding an apology right away, you put them in time-out and they stay there until they're ready and willing to apologize and they put their hand up and ask to return. While they are in time out, the teacher goes on with teaching. The impetus behind telling my partner to text me is to throw the onus on him, and I'll go to my mom's and get on with my life there until he's willing to talk

This of course is all theoretical LOL. I do feel like it will work if I have the courage to go through with it. By work I don't mean get through to him, but show me how I can both detach with love and stand up for myself at the same time. God I hope I can do it when the times come!

Anyways, I don't know if anything in there helps, but I thought it was interesting how good class management is also a lesson in being less codependent. I hope things goes better for you urban!

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