IMHO, setting boundaries has only to do with loving ourselves. We cannot change anyone else. You have the right to say what your limits are. "I will not be spoken to like that." "I prefer..." It is not necessary to argue with him, or listen to abuse. There is always hope. See if he will respect your boundaries. Important to be consistent in this. It''s about taking care of you.

what you are describing sounds familiar to me. I relate. In my experience, my spouse and I both need our own individual counseling, and relationship help, too.

Because we were not adept at positive communication with each other, we had years and years of heaping problems piled into a rubbish trash dump that was also cluttered with anger, resentment, etc. I blamed him. He blamed me. I say he caused it, he says I deserve it..... and on and on...

This pattern fits the model of domestic violence. Even if no physical violence is involved, emotional, mental and verbal violence and trying to manipulate and control end up destroying any chance for intimacy at all.

I read a book called "Getting the Love you want" by Harville Hendrix and he explained how we unconsciously choose mates that have the composite of the patterns, problems, personality flaws that our parents and caregivers had in order to try to recreate our childhood traumas and have the chance to try to fix it as adults. I joined Adult Children of Alcoholics, who accept anyone who is an adult children of any dysfunctional family of origin.

I was in denial, repressing and unconscious of how so many of my own family of origin problems were keeping this vicious cycle of verbal and emotional and mental violence going on between us.

My husband kept insisting I WAS THE PROBLEM. I felt that with his temper and quickness to anger and my resentments for the hurts he caused me, I could never find happiness or be at peace. But little by little, I surrendered, to "OKAY, I am the problem." I knew full well that we both were the problem, but there was no progress in trying to get him to see his part in our problems. So I went to counseling by myself. I got medications for myself. I started attending a support group for myself. I started journaling. I started seeking ways to learn to practice calmness and serenity for myself.

Eventually, he has responded in very positive ways. When I started to change myself, the dynamics shifted. There was resistance to me changing. But, I have stayed on course pretty much, and the relationship changes are remarkable.

I would say, for the first time in 33 years of being together, this year, pleasant to each other sincerely, patient and accepting of each other with our flaws and shortcomings, not putting expectations on each other, easily forgiving each other when we err, and both starting to listen to one another and learn to admit when we err. (I would note that we both have been clean and sober of alcohol and illicit drugs for 8 years, but we didn't have the recovery, spiritual awakening, tools, resources, grace to change our attitudes and behaviors to having humility and goodwill, even though we were sober.) It took ME getting into a 12 step program and me trying to help myself, (even though I still felt like HE STARTED IT, IT WAS HIS FAULT) for any remarkable change to happen for us.

You know what helped me best, possumlady? Was getting a picture of my spouse as a child, and looking at my childhood picture, and his childhood picture, and recognizing we are both such wounded hurt inner children walking around in a grown-up body and unable to figure out our pain, and we are both taking it out on each other. Starting to pray for him, and think of him as a wounded inner child, just like me is the single change of my perception that I feel turned everything upside down for us.

I could tell, for the first time, he was feeling my compassion for him. He was feeling my trying not to blame and judge him. He was feeling my acceptance of him right where he was, even though he had a long way to go before getting real about our situation. I still had to set boundaries and stand up for my needs, and speak up against bad attitudes and behaviors.

Things are definitely not perfect. But, when I started praying and treating him with the compassion of a wounded child in a man's body, trying to act all tough and big and mighty and controlling, he melted, kind of like the Wizard of Oz did when Dorothy finally pulled open the curtain on him.

I don't know if my experience can help you, or if you relate, but, the changes I have experienced have been so remarkable and they have given me hope. So, I think it is worth sharing with you, if you find any of it helpful.

Best to you as you try to untangle one string at a time in the jumbled up relationship of a dysfunctional marriage. Even untangling a couple strings makes a big difference in feeling like you can finally breath and see light at the end of a tunnel.

continued

I should have also mentioned that we have separated twice in the past for several months the first time and several years the second time due to raging, anger, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse, and there came two times when I had to get out of the relationship to save myself and for my own sanity.

Each time, eventually, trying to reconcile, we would revert back to these negative patterns, and the tension between us and in our household and family was unbearable. We both ended up having disdain and sarcasm, hating to be around one another and basically, well, waiting for the other to just die.

Up to less than a year ago, we kept repeating this pattern to no avail. I kept working at getting myself help, and looking at him as sick and deserving compassion instead of hating him and wishing he would just drop dead is the key that changed my heart, and I think he could sense that energy change. When you feel someone truly cares for you and has your back, and sets limits and boundaries but does not speak down at you, but rather from your heart to his heart, it might make a change.

But, I must repeat, I had to leave the relationship twice. If you are in jeopardy, or you can find no safety or serenity in your marriage, and if your spouse is not able or willing to change himself because he chooses to change, then following your inner wisdom to do what you must to be safe, free and happy is called for.

Wow, thanks so much for sharing your insight and wisdom. I am seeing a counsellor weekly and she tells me that my H needs to start taking responsibility for his own issues and behaviour instead of blaming me for everything. Unfortunately he refuses to seek counselling for himself or together with me. Feeling that I may need to leave so that the kids and I can live in peace.

Hi feel that it is written about me. I am in such a bad place at the moment. I want to leave, but my H is threatening suicide. I am so scared right now. I am on my own I have no family in this country and no friends. This year I have attempted suicide twice and now seeing the clinical psychologist. She told me that I am codependent. He refused family therapy as he believes it is only me who has a problem. Now he is emotionally blackmailing me- acting all weird, started smoking again, sitting and steering in to space, not eating. I feel so guilty and so helpless.

Possumlady,
I have similar problems with my husband. Throughout our 13 year marriage, when we would fight, the name calling would start.

We are currently in marriage counseling, and our counselor called him on it, cause he swears a lot even in counseling. He denies that it's a problem, saying that I should know he doesn't mean any of it, he's just mad.

Seekinghealthy,
Thank you so much for sharing your story. it really gives me hope. My husband and I are separated for the first time ever, and we have even talked about divorce. But we still love each other and still want to keep trying, so it's good to hear that it can work, sometimes.

I liked what you said about feeling compassions for him, and trying not to judge or blame. I recently used that approach when it came to money, which is a big source of stress. He really seemed kind of pleasantly surprised when he sensed my compassion. It really has help turn things around, this week at least.

Wow possum, I could have written what you wrote exactly. My h is the same way - blaming everyone for his problems, including me. I read Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, which changed the dynamic for me. I no longer responded to his tantrums or "played the game" with him. If he yelled I said, "we can talk when you are calmer" and walked away. It was the first step toward change. He understood there were consequences when he behaved that way.

Seeking, I'm really glad you wrote your story too, because I can relate to that as well. I'm in a 12 year relationship and outside stresses are crushing it (his mother has dementia and we are caring for her), also because my h has a lot of issues. I like what you say about not acting judgmental. The trouble is for me, no matter what I do with him, he says I am doing it wrong. Sometimes the best I can do is just continue to be my positive self. It is very hard. I am so glad you are working it out and have seen improvement. It gives me hope.

Sometimes the only way an abusive man will change is under the threat of your leaving. But you have to really mean it if you are. If he is at all physically violent you will need a safe plan for leaving. The other book that has been a game changer for me has been "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft. It describes their attempts at manipulation and things like how to leave safely. Sometimes a separation can help you both get perspective, rather than divorce. It can shake them up to awaken to their behaviour. And it can also show you what life would be like without them. You may find you gain strength from the calm, sweet serenity of being on your own for a time. I am still working on my marriage. So glad to have the help of this group.

It is not acceptable for a husband to yell and swear at his wife, IMHO. One person is not always wrong while the other is always right. It does take "two to tango", you are right about that.

I am glad that sharing my experience has provided some thoughts for some who are sharing on this thread.

I do think I should point out, I had to leave my spouse TWICE before this happened for significant lengths of time. I have been in a battered women's shelter. This is really a complicated matter in a marriage, and I would say that I tolerated way more than I ever would have if I had any sense of self-worth as a young woman. I was totally based in fear when I stayed, and when I went back the first time, totally afraid I would not get custody of the kids, because my husband's parents were letting him live with them and helping him with a lawyer who was known for getting custody of children against mothers.

I think that learning to see my husband as a wounded inner child is more helpful to me letting go of so much resentment and hurt inside of me. He happened to respond to this. But, this was after a second separation, and he did loose a lot before he was willing to make any changes, and even now, we still have issues.

The thing I realized is I had issues, too. I had low self-esteem. I had not learned I had the right to stand up for myself. I had to learn to set boundaries. I had to see where my part in the fighting was not helpful to the situation. I had to see where my own anger and vengefulness had gotten the best of me.

But, I think the replies here, learning not to engage in the verbal abuse, reading books and perhaps joining women's support groups, being aware of the cycle of domestic violence, verbal and emotional abuse, and empowering ourselves with knowledge, resources and support is healthy as we sort out how to proceed in our difficult decisions.

In my situation, my spouse became disabled 6 years ago, and that was right after I returned home. So, he lost lost of his pride, his status, his abilities, his finances, his job, his ego, and he experienced depression, anxiety, illness, etc. In my feelings, it is due to this hardship, that many of his "spiritual changes" have taken place, too. It isn't by my own actions, but by fate that we are able to keep trudging along trying to make our lives together work.

I don't want anyone who feels that the situation is intolerable or inacceptable to feel that they are not supported if they choose to leave. In the long run, we all must do for ourselves what our inner voice guides us to do for our highest and best interest.